"Overstock" Successfully!
- Thread starter John Rambo
- Start date
John Rambo;1427892; said:
I'd agree with everything but 4, 6, and 7. My philosophy is to keep them happy which minimizes stress, thus minimizing aggression.
4. I provide lots of "houses" so they all have a place to chill out and aren't all fighting over the sme flowerpot. This also keeps them from being stressed because no one has a place to call "his/hers".
6. I give live feeders from time to time. I feel depriving them of their instinct to be a predator can lead to unhappiness/stress which can lead to aggression. I started a Convict breeding program specifically to solve the safe food supply issue (I got ich with lfs feeders).
7. I keep my temp between 80 degrees and 82 degrees. I think this temp is better for the fishes, they grow faster and are healthier and more "comfortable". I feel this leads to less stress, more happiness and less aggression.
In addition, I'd like to add the big, frequent water changes are a neccessity. Especially when keeping fishes well fed (to keep them happier). I also feed a large variety of food including Hikari BioGold, Freeze Dried Krill, Frozen Blood Worms, Cichlid Sticks, and Carolina Jumbo shrimp from the grocer. For live feeders, I used to use Rosey Reds and Comets. Now I use my Convict offspring.
You also have to be careful what you stock. Some fish are simply more murderous than others (Red Devil comes to mind) although each fish has his/her own individual personality. Most of my fishes (about half) have been together for six months now (3 of those months in a 55 while readying my big tank). The rest were on my want list and I picked them up as I found good specimens.
Here's what I keep...
Parachromis managuense male 12"+ (Jaguar)
Parachromis managuense male 9"+ (Jaguar)
Parachromis managuense male 3"+ (Jaguar)
Parachromis friedrichsthalii male 11 1/2" (Freddy)
Parachromis loiselli female 7" (Loiselli)
Amphilophus festae female 7"+ (True Red Terror)
Astronotus ocellatus 10"+ (Albino Tiger Oscar)
Astronotus ocellatus 5" (Tiger Oscar)
Aequidens rivulatus male 6"+ (Gold Saum or False Green Terror)
Synodonis eupterus 6"+ (Featherfin Catfish)
Snodontis lonirostrus 6" (No zcommon name I know of)
I have been lucky so far with no aggression issues. It hasn't all been easy though. I had a case of ich break out and lost a Green Terror to that. I treated with heat and salt successfully (except for the GT) and added a 36 watt Coralife UV Sterilizer to the system to alleviate future parasite issues. And a couple of days ago, I had another Oscar jump to his death while I was away from home (the albino oscar replaced the suicide victim). Besides that, it is a ton of work to maintain. Between the water changes and feedings, it can take up a lot of time. But, the rewards are well worth my efforts.
The main thing I would emphasize to anyone wanting to try this is to be prepared to put in the proper time neccessary to maximize your chances for success. Feeding for 15 minutes 4 times a day (my big jag prefers the sticks and the others eat anything) and changing 100 gallons of water twice a week can be time consuming. And be prepared to take whatever action may be neccessary to prevent murders if it doesn't go well (another tank, divider, etc.).
Cich_lids;1429504; said:
nc_nutcase and I disagree on this point. But I have had success with my theory and he's had success with his. In the long run, and this is only my opinion, but if both methods can work, I prefer the one that is more "natural" for the fishes. They want a place to call their own, they are territorial. I think the important part is to provide enough "houses" so there's no one left out to fight over the last house. Both of these methods can work, but for different reasons. One is "giving", the other is "taking away".
It's the same with temperature. Sure, you could keep it cold to slow down metabolism and keep them lethargic. At best, this may work to keep aggression in check. And at worst, only serve to stunt their growth (or make them grow more slowly) and frustrate them from being too far away from their "ideal" conditions. This, again, could lead to added stress that could lead to more aggression.
But I don't have any paperwork to back that up.
These are all just my personal philosophies and theories, but they're what I practice and have worked for me so far.***Edited To Add***
When making decisions like the one we're talking about in this post, I ask myself which way is closer to what the fishes would naturally want. Which one allows them to live more closely to what their instincts tell them. And I'm only talking about getting closer. I know I can't replicate their natural enviornment in every way. But, I can try to get closer, so to speak. And I feel getting closer to what they would "want" means less stress which means one less reason for them to flip out.
This reasoning doesn't always work though. Take for instance feeding. Feeding a staple of quality pellets (I like BioGold) is a ton more nutritous than what is available to them in their natural enviornment. But using the same reasoning, I like to give them live feeders from time to time. I feel only giving prepared foods can frustrate a predator. I'm sure we've all seen the tiger pacing back and forth in it's enclosure. It's probably not because his enclosure is too small or that there are too many tigers in there, but rather because he's not allowed to be a tiger.
1. use a tank around 180 gallons min.
2. introduce all fish around the same time to prevent an initial territory
3. all fish must be similar in size
4. limit decorations to prevent territories and to provide space
5. No breeding pairs
6. recommend no live food to reduce aggression
7. keep temp. lower than 80s to reduce aggression
8. frequent water changes, frequent water testing, proper filtration
9. frequent feeding to prevent competition
10. add cheap fish to reduce aggression from other cichlids. Some thing cheap, fast swimming, and small.
1) It isn't about gallonage, it is more of foot print and/or height and where the fish naturally swims in the water column. If you have all bottom and mid water fish then you would want a shorter tank that is wider and longer. With top water, mid, and bottom you would want a tank that is taller so each fish can have a good place in the water column.
Also with sqaure footage, a two foot tank is still kind of narrow. For a fish to swim from one end to the other it will have to swim past another fish (relatively close).
With a 36" wide foot print, fish can chase their glass images or swim in the middle and still have space.
4) I would rather have a bunch of deco. More hiding places then you have fish. Don't stack all of your rocks or deco in the back of the tank. This only leaves one run that all fish must use to get from left to right. If you put the deco in the middle to create two runs then fish can swim along one run and not see fish on the other side. Then you can create passages so fish can swim over, through, and along the deco over the foot print.
6) When you feed live, feed a bunch of live, but not often. I have never noticed my fish fighting over food. If there is plenty of prey they all get a little fun.
10) No need for a dither. Every fish in there is a dither in one fashion or another so keep the fish you want.
With 8, I agree totally, but since I started doing continuous drip my water is never above 10ppm nitrates. With manual water changes I was getting about 40ppm. I highly recommend continuous drip for monster fish.
I agree with everything else. I do however keep my temp at 81.
2. introduce all fish around the same time to prevent an initial territory
3. all fish must be similar in size
4. limit decorations to prevent territories and to provide space
5. No breeding pairs
6. recommend no live food to reduce aggression
7. keep temp. lower than 80s to reduce aggression
8. frequent water changes, frequent water testing, proper filtration
9. frequent feeding to prevent competition
10. add cheap fish to reduce aggression from other cichlids. Some thing cheap, fast swimming, and small.
1) It isn't about gallonage, it is more of foot print and/or height and where the fish naturally swims in the water column. If you have all bottom and mid water fish then you would want a shorter tank that is wider and longer. With top water, mid, and bottom you would want a tank that is taller so each fish can have a good place in the water column.
Also with sqaure footage, a two foot tank is still kind of narrow. For a fish to swim from one end to the other it will have to swim past another fish (relatively close).
With a 36" wide foot print, fish can chase their glass images or swim in the middle and still have space.
4) I would rather have a bunch of deco. More hiding places then you have fish. Don't stack all of your rocks or deco in the back of the tank. This only leaves one run that all fish must use to get from left to right. If you put the deco in the middle to create two runs then fish can swim along one run and not see fish on the other side. Then you can create passages so fish can swim over, through, and along the deco over the foot print.
6) When you feed live, feed a bunch of live, but not often. I have never noticed my fish fighting over food. If there is plenty of prey they all get a little fun.
10) No need for a dither. Every fish in there is a dither in one fashion or another so keep the fish you want.
With 8, I agree totally, but since I started doing continuous drip my water is never above 10ppm nitrates. With manual water changes I was getting about 40ppm. I highly recommend continuous drip for monster fish.
I agree with everything else. I do however keep my temp at 81.
Cich_lids;1429504; said:
Scientific proof of what part? You quoted several things…
Terd - You cannot claim to take a more natural approach when you have that many fish in a 190 gallons of space… that is utterly unnatural… I’m not saying it’s bad or wrong, but utterly unnatural…
Although I must mention I respect that you are considering the fish’s interests by providing proper temperature and hiding places, which I think is simply proper fish keeping and doing otherwise is… less than proper fish keeping…
Pwmin - that is hardly an analogy between people and fish… It was a summary sentence at the end of a logical point.
Terd - just to clarify, my approach is to lightly stock big tanks… and also to use ample décor… this other unnatural method is not mine, just one that I understand and have used in my youth…
John Rambo - for someone who doesn’t support the concept of overstocking but has experience doing so… it’s difficult to avoid the debate
but I’m doing my best! lolKeeping any fish in any tank no matter the size of the fish or the tank is unnatural. We don't set up tanks then wait for fish to naturally appear.
The OP listed 10 points. I was thinking our posts should provide feedback to the 10 points so we can create a guideline for overstocking large tanks. Either by changing one of the points, removing it, or adding more.
So far I am having success with my overcrowding. The only difference with mine is that I am stocking large CA/SA/African cichlids, hybrid cichlids, and NA native gamefish.
The OP listed 10 points. I was thinking our posts should provide feedback to the 10 points so we can create a guideline for overstocking large tanks. Either by changing one of the points, removing it, or adding more.
So far I am having success with my overcrowding. The only difference with mine is that I am stocking large CA/SA/African cichlids, hybrid cichlids, and NA native gamefish.
If you were to start with a bunch of 2" fish in a 180g I don't think it will work. Need to have larger fish. Also I have 14 fish ranging in size from 8-9" to 2-3". Even though aggression is at a minimum there is still a pecking order. Growing fish will challenge to move up in this pecking order.
Bderick67 - Thats a nice mix, and nice pics. Which of the 10 points are you using or are there any different things you are doing that are not on the list?
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108403
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108403
