Pond Prime is identical to Prime?
- Thread starter Scorponok
- Start date
I may be having a blonde moment here as it is very early for me but surely if you have say 20ppm of chlorine in your tap water then surely it takes X amount of prime to take away that 20ppm of chlorine regardless of where the water is situated.
Also if surface area was an issue surely aquarium dosage would be totally dependant on the surface area of that aquarium, be it a 12x8x8" or a 72x24x24" which are both rather standard aquarium sizes or very closes to it.
Those ratios are akin to comparing a 6x2x2' tank to a 36x6x6' pond, yet you would always use aquarium prime on either of the tank sizes but only pond prime on the massive pond despite the same size ratios between the two tanks mentioned above and between the large tank and the large pond.
With that reasoning doesn't the tech's answer start to look like marketing squirming because people are starting to catch on to pond prime and its much cheaper price in comparison to aquarium prime.
Edit: I have sent an email to seachem with tank size included so they can best answer my question "I use Aquarium prime at the moment but I have a large tank and while Prime is a great product that is very cheap per dose I have noticed that Pond Prime would work out cheaper for me.
For your information to answer my question better my tank is a 60x24x24" with a 30x18x18" sump with lots of open air water movement which is a large of volume of water but still within standard aquarium sizes.
Would I be able to use Pond Prime on my large aquarium?"
I will post a reply when I get one.
I understand a 5x2x2 is not particularly large here but to the regular world a 5x2x2 is a swimming pool of an aquarium.
Also if surface area was an issue surely aquarium dosage would be totally dependant on the surface area of that aquarium, be it a 12x8x8" or a 72x24x24" which are both rather standard aquarium sizes or very closes to it.
Those ratios are akin to comparing a 6x2x2' tank to a 36x6x6' pond, yet you would always use aquarium prime on either of the tank sizes but only pond prime on the massive pond despite the same size ratios between the two tanks mentioned above and between the large tank and the large pond.
With that reasoning doesn't the tech's answer start to look like marketing squirming because people are starting to catch on to pond prime and its much cheaper price in comparison to aquarium prime.
Edit: I have sent an email to seachem with tank size included so they can best answer my question "I use Aquarium prime at the moment but I have a large tank and while Prime is a great product that is very cheap per dose I have noticed that Pond Prime would work out cheaper for me.
For your information to answer my question better my tank is a 60x24x24" with a 30x18x18" sump with lots of open air water movement which is a large of volume of water but still within standard aquarium sizes.
Would I be able to use Pond Prime on my large aquarium?"
I will post a reply when I get one.
I understand a 5x2x2 is not particularly large here but to the regular world a 5x2x2 is a swimming pool of an aquarium.
cichlid2006;4892352; said:
"chlorine will dissipate out of the water when exposed to air. the greater exposure to air dechlorinates along side the prime, therefore less prime is needed to dechlorinate the same volume of water in the same amount of time."
cichlid2006;4892352; said:
ponds are almost never more than 3 feet deep because that is the deepest frost line for most of the usa and it gets hard to see the fish past that depth (you'll find those figures in most of the pond/water garden construction literature). there are few reasons to have a pond deeper than that, so few that i can't think of even one example of an actual pond deeper than roughly 3 feet... except for what nes999 claims, but i'm not even sure what he was trying to say.
i think the ratio they refer to is surface area to depth. so a 6x2x2 tank would have 6sq.ft. of surface area for every 1 foot of depth and the 36x6x6 pond has 36sq.ft of surface area per 1 foot of depth. that's 6x more surface area to depth for the pond.
DISCLAIMER: i could be totally wrong about this whole idea. you could also look at it as your pond has 6 cubic feet of water for every square foot of surface area and the tank only has 2 cubic feet of water per square foot of surface area (giving the tank a better ratio).
i have no clue which ratio would be more practical to use. possibly, seachem has done some tests to determine the necessary dosage of their product that you could ask them about?
they could also be figuring in that it takes more time to fill a pond than an aquarium because of the ponds larger size. giving the pond more time to "gas off".
cichlid2006;4892352; said:
pond prime is only slightly cheaper and yes, it does seem to look like some kind of a marketing maneuver to me.
assuming that pond prime is the same as aquarium prime, the questions that remain are:
1- why does a pond of equal volume need less prime than an aquarium?
2- how did they determine that a pond needs less prime? in other words; what tests have they done and what were the results?
cichlid2006;4892352; said:
i'm looking forward to seeing their response.
I only included depth in those examples of tank/pond sizes purely to show the ratios, ie each example was 6 times longer than the first and three time as wide/deep than the previous one. Depth was not really a part of the question as they have stated that only surface area matters not water volume in the forum reply and below.
I stand by my example of surface areas and if it is so important then why is regular prime used on both a 72x24" and a 12x8" footrpint when the surface areas for gassing off are so vastly different but you have to go to a different kind for a 36x6' pond. In fact the pond could be so much smaller then 36x6' as they have simply stated "pond" without sizing guidelines, further leading me to question their response.
It just comes across as marketing script to me, to keep you buying the more expensive product.
Their reply "Thank you for your question and for using Seachem products. Prime and Pond Prime are actually the same product but are dosed at different rates. This is due to the large surface area of a pond and the different evaporation rates. Unfortunately, you would need to treat your aquarium with the same amount of Pond Prime as you would regular Prime. Please let us know if you have any additional questions."
I have seen ponds with a surface area of 15sqft (5x3') in small gardens stocked with small goldfish with no water feature for agitation, a 6x2' aquarium's surface area is 12sqft. This is only 3sqft smaller than the pond yet, according to seachems answer I must use pond prime on the pond but aquarium prime on the 6x2' tank which is likely to have far more surface agitation in the form of a sump.
Here is a great example, a small pond http://www.gardeners-world.net//prod_show.asp?prodid=8154 of only 54x30" which leads to a surface area of 1620sqin.
My aquarium is 60x24"(tank) + 30x18" (sump) = 1980sqin of surface area. According to seachem I can only use pond prime on the pond because ponds have larger surface areas for gassing off, those numbers do not include the water movement from tank to sump which is extremely fast flowing and open to air at some stages creating additional surface area for gassing off.
Do you see why I am suspicious of their answer?
If surface area was as important as the reps seem to make out then they would give a minimum pond size as I gave them plenty of info to give an informed answer, their reps will know that you get prefab small ponds for small areas.
I stand by my example of surface areas and if it is so important then why is regular prime used on both a 72x24" and a 12x8" footrpint when the surface areas for gassing off are so vastly different but you have to go to a different kind for a 36x6' pond. In fact the pond could be so much smaller then 36x6' as they have simply stated "pond" without sizing guidelines, further leading me to question their response.
It just comes across as marketing script to me, to keep you buying the more expensive product.
Their reply "Thank you for your question and for using Seachem products. Prime and Pond Prime are actually the same product but are dosed at different rates. This is due to the large surface area of a pond and the different evaporation rates. Unfortunately, you would need to treat your aquarium with the same amount of Pond Prime as you would regular Prime. Please let us know if you have any additional questions."
I have seen ponds with a surface area of 15sqft (5x3') in small gardens stocked with small goldfish with no water feature for agitation, a 6x2' aquarium's surface area is 12sqft. This is only 3sqft smaller than the pond yet, according to seachems answer I must use pond prime on the pond but aquarium prime on the 6x2' tank which is likely to have far more surface agitation in the form of a sump.
Here is a great example, a small pond http://www.gardeners-world.net//prod_show.asp?prodid=8154 of only 54x30" which leads to a surface area of 1620sqin.
My aquarium is 60x24"(tank) + 30x18" (sump) = 1980sqin of surface area. According to seachem I can only use pond prime on the pond because ponds have larger surface areas for gassing off, those numbers do not include the water movement from tank to sump which is extremely fast flowing and open to air at some stages creating additional surface area for gassing off.
Do you see why I am suspicious of their answer?
If surface area was as important as the reps seem to make out then they would give a minimum pond size as I gave them plenty of info to give an informed answer, their reps will know that you get prefab small ponds for small areas.
cichlid2006;4892936; said:
their answer makes sense to me but i'm curious how they came to those figures. i'd like to see their numbers.
surface area is not the only factor.
generally, a pond will have a greater surface area than a tank of the same volume. since chlorine will "gas off" more from a pond, due to it's larger surface area, it makes sense that less prime would be needed for the pond.
We also must realize what Prime claims. They claim that you can add the amount of Prime (or Pond Prime) to your tank/pond, and your water is immediately safe for your fishes. I believe it's a molecular reaction that binds the chlorine, making it harmless. This has absolutely nothing to do with gassing off, and it takes up to 24 hours for water to "gas off" it's chlorine. I think we all remember aging water in buckets with bubblers for 24 hours before use, and before buying dechlorinating products.
I think the use of chloramine can not be ignored either. A large majority of municipalities use chloramine. My water company most certainly does, and I don't want to put my fish in danger (whether it's in my pond or in my tank.)
I really honestly think it boils down to Prime and Pond Prime are similar (but different concentrations) of the same chemical compounds, and Seachem answered the question in their round-about-way to prevent people from spending half as much on their dechlorinating needs. And as ScatMan said about his presumptions, I too, could be very wrong about this, and it's only my skeptic opinion that I'm staing.
This thread has really turned into something good, and I hope the conversation/discussion can continue. I really just believe that with all the good products Seachem makes, they still need to make money, and if adding 2x the amount of Pond Prime (by dosing at Prime's reccomendation) to your aquarium succeeds in making more money, without harming fish, then I think they would do it. I'm sure their reps are told what to say to these particular questions raised by diligent consumers.
EDIT:: Yes, Pond Prime is only a few dollars cheaper than regular Prime, but if you only use half as much, the cost per treatment is then more than cut in half! So, a 2L lasts you twice as long, AND you paid a couple bucks less for it. If Seachem agreed to this, it would be very bad for their revenue department. And as we all know, "trade secrets" whether it be ingredients in fish food (still don't feel comfortable about all that mess, I wanna know what I'm putting into my fish) OR the exact composition of our dechlorination products. Yes, I am a consumer, and I "should" be happy just the fact it works, but when I was a little girl, about 2 years old, I took my dad's watch apart cos I wanted to see how it worked, and I'd imagine most other science/nerdy people in this hobby are the same way when it comes to science/nerdy stuff like chemical compounds and concentration.
I think the use of chloramine can not be ignored either. A large majority of municipalities use chloramine. My water company most certainly does, and I don't want to put my fish in danger (whether it's in my pond or in my tank.)
I really honestly think it boils down to Prime and Pond Prime are similar (but different concentrations) of the same chemical compounds, and Seachem answered the question in their round-about-way to prevent people from spending half as much on their dechlorinating needs. And as ScatMan said about his presumptions, I too, could be very wrong about this, and it's only my skeptic opinion that I'm staing.
This thread has really turned into something good, and I hope the conversation/discussion can continue. I really just believe that with all the good products Seachem makes, they still need to make money, and if adding 2x the amount of Pond Prime (by dosing at Prime's reccomendation) to your aquarium succeeds in making more money, without harming fish, then I think they would do it. I'm sure their reps are told what to say to these particular questions raised by diligent consumers.
EDIT:: Yes, Pond Prime is only a few dollars cheaper than regular Prime, but if you only use half as much, the cost per treatment is then more than cut in half! So, a 2L lasts you twice as long, AND you paid a couple bucks less for it. If Seachem agreed to this, it would be very bad for their revenue department. And as we all know, "trade secrets" whether it be ingredients in fish food (still don't feel comfortable about all that mess, I wanna know what I'm putting into my fish) OR the exact composition of our dechlorination products. Yes, I am a consumer, and I "should" be happy just the fact it works, but when I was a little girl, about 2 years old, I took my dad's watch apart cos I wanted to see how it worked, and I'd imagine most other science/nerdy people in this hobby are the same way when it comes to science/nerdy stuff like chemical compounds and concentration.
I did send another question off with my other queries."Hi, I do have other enquiries. I have a tremendous amount of water flow that is exposed to open air due to me using a sump for filtration, the surface agitation on the actual surface of the aquarium is quite a lot as well due to the sumps return pumps and powerheads. The surface area of my aquarium and sump combined is 1980sq inches but I found a prefabricated pond that has a total surface area of 810sq inches. As per your answer before you state "Prime and Pond Prime are actually the same product but are dosed at different rates. This is due to the large surface area of a pond and the different evaporation rates."
As per your message my total surface area is significantly larger than the pond example and that is not including the water movement which adds extra surface area and tremendous water agitation. My aquarium and sump only have loose fitting glass lids so gassing out is not hindered in any way as they are far from airtight or even mildly restrictive.
Do you have a minimum pond size for Pond prime as the smallest pond I was able to find in under 2 minutes was a mere 45x18 inches or 810sq inches, so your generic answer of 'a pond' does not answer the previous question?
My other question is why should I dose Pond Prime at the same dose as Aquarium prime when my aquarium's surface area is so much larger than 'a pond'?
Many thanks for your help"
Hopefully this may clear this up or we may get another scripted marketing answer or they may just ignore me as I am being way too much of a pain in the ass for them to bother with. Please, don't take my questions wrong. I like Prime, it works wonders and I will continue to use Seachems products but I feel this needs cleared up, I understand they are a business and their primary goal is making money and I believe they are just trying to steer people towards the more expensive product like any good business would do.
2 litres of pond prime here is £40 delivered and Prime is £68 delivered. I know which one I will use even if it means dosing at twice the amount of pond prime. This is quite a big deal for me because it is such a price difference.
As per your message my total surface area is significantly larger than the pond example and that is not including the water movement which adds extra surface area and tremendous water agitation. My aquarium and sump only have loose fitting glass lids so gassing out is not hindered in any way as they are far from airtight or even mildly restrictive.
Do you have a minimum pond size for Pond prime as the smallest pond I was able to find in under 2 minutes was a mere 45x18 inches or 810sq inches, so your generic answer of 'a pond' does not answer the previous question?
My other question is why should I dose Pond Prime at the same dose as Aquarium prime when my aquarium's surface area is so much larger than 'a pond'?
Many thanks for your help"
Hopefully this may clear this up or we may get another scripted marketing answer or they may just ignore me as I am being way too much of a pain in the ass for them to bother with. Please, don't take my questions wrong. I like Prime, it works wonders and I will continue to use Seachems products but I feel this needs cleared up, I understand they are a business and their primary goal is making money and I believe they are just trying to steer people towards the more expensive product like any good business would do.
2 litres of pond prime here is £40 delivered and Prime is £68 delivered. I know which one I will use even if it means dosing at twice the amount of pond prime. This is quite a big deal for me because it is such a price difference.
I switched over to Pond Prime last year and have not seen any issues dosing at half the amount I was with regular Prime.
I have posted before about the poor water quality I have from my water company. Out of my tap I have Chloramine, nitrates between 5-15ppm, small amount of ammonia, heavy metals, and a varying PH (water is naturally alkaline, but in the summer months they pump acidic water from abandon coal mines to supplement the river water flow for the upstream nuclear power plant). Oh and did I mention there are 82 waste treatment plants upriver from the pipe our water company draws from?
My water is so bad that I have to premix Prime in a holding tank and aerate the water for a couple hours. If I add the tap water directly into the tank and add Prime while I'm doing it, I end up killing some of my small fish in the community tank and my large cichlids flash on the gravel for about an hour.
So the fact that I am using PP at half the dose as I did the years before without fish loss or flashing is an indication that the PP dose is safe.
I have posted before about the poor water quality I have from my water company. Out of my tap I have Chloramine, nitrates between 5-15ppm, small amount of ammonia, heavy metals, and a varying PH (water is naturally alkaline, but in the summer months they pump acidic water from abandon coal mines to supplement the river water flow for the upstream nuclear power plant). Oh and did I mention there are 82 waste treatment plants upriver from the pipe our water company draws from?
My water is so bad that I have to premix Prime in a holding tank and aerate the water for a couple hours. If I add the tap water directly into the tank and add Prime while I'm doing it, I end up killing some of my small fish in the community tank and my large cichlids flash on the gravel for about an hour.
So the fact that I am using PP at half the dose as I did the years before without fish loss or flashing is an indication that the PP dose is safe.
