What are the 'heterotrophic bacteria' in the water that cause the cloudiness? What do they consume? Where did you hear that?
Question About My Discus
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1.Just Google heterotrophic bacteria to learn what they are.reptileguy2727;1167813; said:What are the 'heterotrophic bacteria' in the water that cause the cloudiness? What do they consume? Where did you hear that?
2. I heard it from no one. I research and have been raising discus since 1969.
I know the definition of heterotrophic bacteria.
Long time experience with keeping fish does not give inherent knowledge about in depth microbiology and chemistry related to the subject. Where exactly did YOU first come across this info? Keeping discus for a century will not bring you to an enlightenment about bacteria in the water, you have to either 1: have been curious about the subject in question and researched it, or 2: be a research microbiologist and have discovered it yourself. The simple fact that you have had discus since 1969 says that you probably know what you are doing with discus, which does raise your credibility but does not mean you are perfect or that I or anyone else should simply take your word as undeniable fact.
I asked where you heard it in hopes that a (and now an apparently well experienced) hobbyist who appears to have knowledge that I have not come across may lead me to that information.
I found one site that explains where in nitrogen cycle heterotrphic bacteria have their niche, and a couple others that kind of touch on it. Again, do you have any really good links that explain this?
Long time experience with keeping fish does not give inherent knowledge about in depth microbiology and chemistry related to the subject. Where exactly did YOU first come across this info? Keeping discus for a century will not bring you to an enlightenment about bacteria in the water, you have to either 1: have been curious about the subject in question and researched it, or 2: be a research microbiologist and have discovered it yourself. The simple fact that you have had discus since 1969 says that you probably know what you are doing with discus, which does raise your credibility but does not mean you are perfect or that I or anyone else should simply take your word as undeniable fact.
I asked where you heard it in hopes that a (and now an apparently well experienced) hobbyist who appears to have knowledge that I have not come across may lead me to that information.
I found one site that explains where in nitrogen cycle heterotrphic bacteria have their niche, and a couple others that kind of touch on it. Again, do you have any really good links that explain this?
After a little research I found some good information on the subject. It was concluded that the ammonia oxidizing bacteria in freshwater is Nitrosomonas marina. The nitrite oxidizing bacteria is Nitrospira spp.
Here is a good nontechnical article on the difference between the helpful nitrifying bacteria and the non helpful heterotrophic bacteria in reference to aquaristics;
http://www.bioconlabs.com/autoheterobac.html
I do have much experience with Discus as well as other fish. I have owned a fish shop, began breeding wild discus in 1969 and managed to learn more over the years. Never have claimed I knew everything.
I do have an educational and practical background in biology and chemistry; also worked for testing laboratories and a major public water quality and waste water treatment Facilities agency(Seattle and King County WA) before retiring. I am quite familiar with the role microorgansisms play in this area of endeavor. When it come down to the nuts and bolts, aquariums and their filters systems are miniature versions of these industrial scale processes. I also have a good deal of experience with the microbiology of fish diseases and aquariums.
What happened in the OP"s case was when his significant other was adding Maracyn it selectively was killing the nitrifying bacteria while other opportunistic heterotrophic bacteria resistant to Maracyn were flourishing on the available organics that were in the solution that made up the aquarium's water. They were free to exploit this food resource free from competition.
Sure, I could have said all this in my first post but it was just as likely to set off the same reaction. (%#? know it all.)
What set me off was, "where did you hear that?" It always strikes me as intellectually lazy to rely only on what I have heard or read other aquarists say as if it carried any weight. Of course, that depends on who says what.
I frequently try to get other's to do some research rather than relying on another fish keepers opinions. In the end it is the best way for a fish keeper to learn for themselves how and why things work.
The Discus keepers, perhaps more than any other aquarists, rely on constantly repeated mantras that have little basis in fact. It can make having meaningful conversations with them difficult because they inevitably parrot back what another Discus keepers has told them or inaccurate statements from old books.
I will give you one example. Many people refer to the Discus from the Rio Madiera, their peculiar trait being many have an emphasized fifth bar which they attribute to natural hybridization with Heckel Discus. Well, Discus do not even live in the Rio Madiera. The Fifth bar occurs among a small percent of all Blue/Brown Discus where ever they are from and it is not an indication of hybridization with Heckels. But most semi-knowledgeable Discus keepers believe this as a fact, that Discus do come from the Rio Madiera and that the Fifth bar when emphasized whether in dark or the negative(light) indicates hybridization with a species of Discus that is not even found there!
My source of info? Direct PM from Heiko Bleher and repeated in his new book Bleher's Discus Vol. 1, 2006. Heiko Bleher is one person I do take as a credible source of information. After all, it is he who collected and supplied the raw material to the world's best Discus breeders, who in turn developed the founding stock of the fancy domestic Discus we are all familiar with today.
I never post anything I cannot back up. Otherwise I continue to try to learn more and subject all sources of information to critical thinking.
http://www.bioconlabs.com/autoheterobac.html
I do have much experience with Discus as well as other fish. I have owned a fish shop, began breeding wild discus in 1969 and managed to learn more over the years. Never have claimed I knew everything.
I do have an educational and practical background in biology and chemistry; also worked for testing laboratories and a major public water quality and waste water treatment Facilities agency(Seattle and King County WA) before retiring. I am quite familiar with the role microorgansisms play in this area of endeavor. When it come down to the nuts and bolts, aquariums and their filters systems are miniature versions of these industrial scale processes. I also have a good deal of experience with the microbiology of fish diseases and aquariums.
What happened in the OP"s case was when his significant other was adding Maracyn it selectively was killing the nitrifying bacteria while other opportunistic heterotrophic bacteria resistant to Maracyn were flourishing on the available organics that were in the solution that made up the aquarium's water. They were free to exploit this food resource free from competition.
Sure, I could have said all this in my first post but it was just as likely to set off the same reaction. (%#? know it all.)
What set me off was, "where did you hear that?" It always strikes me as intellectually lazy to rely only on what I have heard or read other aquarists say as if it carried any weight. Of course, that depends on who says what.
I frequently try to get other's to do some research rather than relying on another fish keepers opinions. In the end it is the best way for a fish keeper to learn for themselves how and why things work.
The Discus keepers, perhaps more than any other aquarists, rely on constantly repeated mantras that have little basis in fact. It can make having meaningful conversations with them difficult because they inevitably parrot back what another Discus keepers has told them or inaccurate statements from old books.
I will give you one example. Many people refer to the Discus from the Rio Madiera, their peculiar trait being many have an emphasized fifth bar which they attribute to natural hybridization with Heckel Discus. Well, Discus do not even live in the Rio Madiera. The Fifth bar occurs among a small percent of all Blue/Brown Discus where ever they are from and it is not an indication of hybridization with Heckels. But most semi-knowledgeable Discus keepers believe this as a fact, that Discus do come from the Rio Madiera and that the Fifth bar when emphasized whether in dark or the negative(light) indicates hybridization with a species of Discus that is not even found there!
My source of info? Direct PM from Heiko Bleher and repeated in his new book Bleher's Discus Vol. 1, 2006. Heiko Bleher is one person I do take as a credible source of information. After all, it is he who collected and supplied the raw material to the world's best Discus breeders, who in turn developed the founding stock of the fancy domestic Discus we are all familiar with today.
I never post anything I cannot back up. Otherwise I continue to try to learn more and subject all sources of information to critical thinking.
That is much better. That is more helpful to everyone in my opinion. When you simply state a fact in a short unsupported sentence (even if you can support it when asked) it is not very helpful in my opinion. I see lots of things stated that people heard from here, there, or sometimes nowhere. I asked specifically so that if you had more knowledge than so far I knew you had (which turned out to be the case) you would expand on it. It would be either that or you were doing what you have now shared you do not like, regurtitating information from here or there. That is why I ask, so I can expand my knowledge. I do not simply take a statement from random people online (what we all are to eachother on these forums, besides those with earned and deserved reputations). I personally think that more information in such a response is more helpful than a simple statement without any supporting or background information. Thank you.
Do you happen to know the scientific name of the stated heterotrophic bacteria?
Do you happen to know the scientific name of the stated heterotrophic bacteria?
"Do you happen to know the scientific name of the stated heterotrophic bacteria?"
We would have to culture water samples in order to accurately identify the bacteria that bloomed in the aquarium case study of this thread.. It would be a veritable soup of perhaps hundreds or even thousand of species.
The link to the article in my previous post gives some examples of common offending bacteria.
Even in a fish room of many healthy aquaria we would find that each had it's own unique microbiological ecology. A key factor was the Maracyn disrupted the normal checks and balances that form as each bacteria competes for available nutrients. Under other circumstances some of them would have played helpful roles as sludge digesters and similarly useful functions that help make aquariums run smoothly. Other times a normally harmless bacteria always present can become pathogenic should conditions become suitable.
It is a very dynamic if not usually invisible world of the microbiological soup we keep fish in.
I hope this was topical enough for ....our purposes.
We would have to culture water samples in order to accurately identify the bacteria that bloomed in the aquarium case study of this thread.. It would be a veritable soup of perhaps hundreds or even thousand of species.
The link to the article in my previous post gives some examples of common offending bacteria.
Even in a fish room of many healthy aquaria we would find that each had it's own unique microbiological ecology. A key factor was the Maracyn disrupted the normal checks and balances that form as each bacteria competes for available nutrients. Under other circumstances some of them would have played helpful roles as sludge digesters and similarly useful functions that help make aquariums run smoothly. Other times a normally harmless bacteria always present can become pathogenic should conditions become suitable.
It is a very dynamic if not usually invisible world of the microbiological soup we keep fish in.
I hope this was topical enough for ....our purposes.
I appreciate your help apistomaster. The maracyn I believe after multiple overdoses by my significant other was most defnietly the culprit in the destruction of bacteria in my tank. She had apparently put 2 in every time she fed over 3 days time. This is a total of 18 Maracyn Tablets. I understand the point your were making and appreciate your attenton in this matter. I do have access to the Bio-Lab on campus and may try and take some samples up there to have them checked by one of my Marine Biology Professors.
That would be an interesting project for you to discover what you find and compare those results against the species mentioned in the article I provided the link for regarding heterotrophic bacteria.
I'm sure you never expected quite as much depth we have all have gone into when you originally posted but it never hurts to learn more about the often over looked complexities underlying aquariums and fish keeping. Discus are sensitive fish as you know and they are like canaries in a mine when it comes to adverse conditions. It was unfortunate you had to learn more about bacteria because of the Maracyn mistake. It was a good and funny story but for the high stakes of possibly loosing expensive discus over it. At the same time it was a classic case of why antibiotics should always be used cautiously and in a separate treatment tank. One can easily see how similar this case study was to the effects some antibiotics have on the normal bacteria in the human gut where they are killed off along with the bad disease causing bugs which often results in a little extra reading time in the bathroom.
In any case, I hope your Discus are doing well and none the worse for wear and that your aquarium has renormalized.
Larry
I'm sure you never expected quite as much depth we have all have gone into when you originally posted but it never hurts to learn more about the often over looked complexities underlying aquariums and fish keeping. Discus are sensitive fish as you know and they are like canaries in a mine when it comes to adverse conditions. It was unfortunate you had to learn more about bacteria because of the Maracyn mistake. It was a good and funny story but for the high stakes of possibly loosing expensive discus over it. At the same time it was a classic case of why antibiotics should always be used cautiously and in a separate treatment tank. One can easily see how similar this case study was to the effects some antibiotics have on the normal bacteria in the human gut where they are killed off along with the bad disease causing bugs which often results in a little extra reading time in the bathroom.
In any case, I hope your Discus are doing well and none the worse for wear and that your aquarium has renormalized.
Larry
That is exactly why I like to question people. If my current knowledge is errored, I learn. If their knowledge is, they learn. You can't know too much about stuff like this, which is why I am glad when threads like this occur, they expand the knowledge of everyone who reads it.
