rtm mated with gold mota... is that a hybrid?

[Toby_H]

If a difference in “species” is what was required to qualify as a “hybrid”… that would be the definition…
　
But it’s not…
　
The definition suggests “genetic dissimilarity” is the distinction… and suggests that “different varieties, species, or races” are general guidelines of what genetic dissimilarities are… although it does not limit “genetic dissimilarities” to these three differences…
　
There are other places that include “esp. as produced through human manipulation…” which further supports that a RTM & Gold Mota cross would be a hybrid.
　
“Genetic Dissimilarity” will be far more common in different “races” of Cichlids than in “races” of humans. This is because for thousands of years humans have been traveling the world and continually “hybridizing” thus keeping the genetic dissimilarity of the “human race” quite narrow…
　
Cichlids have far less opportunity to breed between races in the nature. It is in the home aquarium through human manipulation that Cichlids are most frequently given the opportunity to cross breed or hybridize…
　
　
A further example of why 'arm chair biologists' have such a hard time coming to simple answers to complex questions... even when we have all the facts at hand...
　
So no need to suggest anyone is “having a hard time understanding”… just because they don’t agree with you…

 

[Sarah88]

Exactly, this why I think you are having a hard time understanding the simple fact that seems to elude you, the fact of the matter is that both the red and yellow Mota's bares the same classification, "Parachromis Motaguense". Unless you are saying that the scientist who classified both the red and yellow as Motaguense are wrong and should of gave either one of the mota's it's own species designation, because apparently the scientist didn't see a big enough genetic difference in the red and yellows to classify one of them as another species.

Furthermore, according to the hybrid definition that you keep referring too where it says "different varieties", if a light skinned African American women(variety) has a baby with a Dark skin African man from Africa, then the baby is considered a hybrid? The term "different varieties" as we read it is ambiguous and is open for interpretation, further definition as to what specifically constitutes it as a "different variety" is needed.

The term "race" that the definition uses is what I think got most people confused. People have a pre disposition of the term "race" and they apply it to the fish but with a human social construct of what race is. Asian race, Black race, White race is what we think of when we hear the term race to categorize a group, but scientifically for humans, this is incorrect. Humans have not diverged genetically enough to constitute their own races, but in everyday society we often here these terms use to refer to a group of people of different "color" but this is not scientifically sound since there is truly only one race of humans, and that would be the human race. For animals, in this case, fish, the term "race" is use synonymously with the term "subspecies", the red and yellow Motaguense is not genetically diverse enough to be granted the classification of "race" or sub-species hence the single classification for both Mota colors.

[FONT=&quot] Many of the common terms we use in the fish keeping community such as variant, strain, race and color morph was actually created by the fish keeping community to differentiate fish of the same species but different colors, but this probably isn’t truly accurate and lack scientific backing. Until one of the red or yellow Mota’s are re-classified into their own “race” or sub-species, then they are the same, scientifically speaking, and offspring of the two colors does not constitute them as hybrids. [/FONT]

 

[dogofwar]

Trying to get folks - legit scientists, armchair or whatever - to agree on definitions of species and hybrid isn't likely.

Whether the offspring of one variety of mota and a rtm is technically a hybrid or not is frankly irrelevant

What matters, if the point is to maintain fish that are authentic to what is in the wild, is to breed only fish from a particular population.

If the goal is to create something different than what's found in a particular natural population, then cross away...

 

[Jason_S]

Trying to get folks - legit scientists, armchair or whatever - to agree on definitions of species and hybrid isn't likely.

Whether the offspring of one variety of mota and a rtm is technically a hybrid or not is frankly irrelevant

What matters, if the point is to maintain fish that are authentic to what is in the wild, is to breed only fish from a particular population.

If the goal is to create something different than what's found in a particular natural population, then cross away...

Whether the offspring would be hybrid or not is irrelevant? I would have to disagree since this thread began because the OP asked that exact question.

 

[hairdog]

I think it depends on offspring. Like convicts, I have two black parents but they carry pinks genes so when they bred I got some pink and some black. It might work like dominant and reccesive genes.

 

[Toby_H]

Color morphs as a result of a mutated gene, such as Albinism, Luecism, or Bluish (whatever the heck you want to call the Blue Dempsey 'ism) are a complete different category... these are "gene mutations" (google medelian genetics)...
　
　
　
From the perspective of this thread, it's completely relevant whether RTM x Gold Motas are hybrids, as that's the original question posed here...
　
From the perspective of the hobby at large, it's not really relevant if they are hybrids or not. Although it is important that they are properly labeled. As proper labeling is always important...

 

[Modest_Man]

TFH has a great article in the December issue in the Cichlidophiles section by Wayne Leibel called "What is a species?" I recommend everyone read it.

 

[dogofwar]

My point is that whether the offspring are technically hybrids is probably the wrong criteria for deciding whether to move forward with the project or not

Matt

Whether the offspring would be hybrid or not is irrelevant? I would have to disagree since this thread began because the OP asked that exact question.

 

[Jason_S]

My point is that whether the offspring are technically hybrids is probably the wrong criteria for deciding whether to move forward with the project or not

Matt

Well that's for the OP to decide. I don't recall anyone saying that he should or shouldn't. We're merely trying to answer the original question which was, would the resulting fry be hybrids. And the answer, based on the dictionary definition of the word, yes they would be.

 

[aussie schom]

who cares just breed them and send them to me!
hahaha