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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]We are not talking about [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]cyprinid[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]s but tropical fish [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=times new roman,serif]
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]and in most cases rare and sensitive types of tropical fish not gold fish/carp. And because of that I really question your qualifications for giving this advise.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Likewise mr science. What exacly qualifies you to negate another's advice? Furthermore, when this advice is not some novel idea fabricated from the mind of an unexperienced aquarist, but rather, a long-standing, widely accepted meathod within not only the private but commercial industry as well. You're entitled to your opinion, but your entitlement stops there. If you posses or can provide another with a direct link to any authentic scientific publication of which has been widely accepted within this hoby/field, then by all means, we're waiting. If you cannot, then do not spout off random names of individuals who like you, may hold their own opinion of the matter, but of whom have not received any form of certifiable recognition on their claimed discoveries and alternative practices. To each their own, but such does not make it law. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]And to prescribe salt as u do and as often as you do is really unforntunate to the owners.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]How so? And how would you know exactly how many times, and with which situations he happens to prescribe this meathod of treatment? Do you follow him around, post stalking, waiting to jump in and object? Certainly you aren't implying that the majority of owners who are faced will an ailing fish are only given this form of treatment? Or are you? [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Id suggest you look at your posts where people took your advise on salt. And see how many died, you might impressed. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]To do such, and draw a conclution of what you just suggested, would assume that in each of these situations, not only the disease of the animal, but also the living conditions, specifically water parameters and tank maintenance, as well as it's owner's level of experience, attentiveness, and proper execution of said remedies was identical. And we all know what assuming does, don't we. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Any excellent tropical fish vet or phd pharm who specializes in tropicals dont subscribe to salt. Because they understand on a cellular and cardiovascular level the harm of it. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Really? Because I know, and work with and around many who do. Once again, you fail to distinguish the opinions and preferences of a few, instead deducting that they represent the masses, or that any of a differing opinion would be less qualified in their field. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]There is alot of well meaning but misinformed people on these boards[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I agree....[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]on the use of salt as some miracle cure. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I have yet to meet an individual who thinks of salt as the cure all. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]When in fact it miraculously kills alot of fish or it just wastes precious time when your fish could have the right kind of medications. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Fish don't ever die "miraculously". There is no miracle in death, and once again in these instances of death, one would need to assume that every other factor of the equation was met with excellence - living conditions, doseage, diet, etc, and that it was infact the salt which caused said deaths. How exactly might one assertain such a fact? Were necrop's performed on each of these animals to ensure that no other disease, parasite, infection, or genetic disorder were present? No, and therefore you cannot insert salt as a control. [/FONT][/FONT]
And when you mention wasting precious time when a fish could have the "right" kind of medication - what exactly, in your opinion does the "right kind" entail? I am guessing it would be those of popular retail brands sold within the hoby? Chemical coctails by the oz? To be honest, many of those medications serve their purpose well, and sometimes are the only things which might save an ailing fish with an advanced condition. But other times, they simply aren't needed. Likewise, there have been many occasions where these "proper medications" were used and a fatality also resulted, and yet you fail to mention those.
I'm not saying your claim of deaths with salt treatment are unfounded, as sure, there have been fish who have died while receiving such. I am simply pointing out that in the wonderful world of "approved medications", there have also been deaths, so one cannot reasonably proclaim superiority without first analyzing their study objectively.
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Fish biology 101: Fish have low lood pressure w/ single circuit system and a 2 chamber heart. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Water follows salt, so u add salt, blood pressure rises in the ventral and dorsal aortic cardiovascular system of the tropical fish. As the (BP) rises it triggers cortisol levels to rise along with the heart rate, then say good bye.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Don't make such a cut and dry statement. That's not always so. The mineralocoticoid actions of cortisol have receiving particular attention with respect to the osmoregulatory processes required for adaptation to seawater, with freshwater fish. The transfer of fish from fresh water to seawater is accompanied by a prolonged exposure and elevation of plasma cortisol that is widely accepted to contribute to seawater acclimation by stimulating the proliferation differentiation of ion-transporting chloride cells within the gill epithelium, as well as by stimulating Na+ -K+ ATPase activity within osmoregulatory organs including the gills, intestines and kidneys. Gills must be able to diffuse water while simultaneously keeping salts of the bodily fluids inside. Freshwater fish lack a natural source of replenishment for salts, and therefore must work that much harder to maintain sufficient levels, and prevent excessive loss of such. In situations where scales are damaged - like with an agressive bout of ich, a surplus of water - unbalancing the natural salt/water composition within the fish - diffused in through the skin, can cause the fish to die. Cortisol plays a dual role in contributing to the regulation of both carbohydrate metabolism, and salt/water balance. Now, when a fish is diseased, and experiences a prolonged influx of cortisol, sure, there can be detrimental effects on the body's inner workings, the same as chronic stress in a human can inhibit not only our bodily functions, but our immuno-response to infection and disease as well. But that is not to say that any infrequent rise of such results in death. That would be a foolish statement, if left at that. [/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]If your fish is already under stress, then cortisol (the stress hormone) levels are already high. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Duh, cortisol is the stress hormone, so naturally, if an animal is stressed, the levels of cortisol have elevated, 1+1=2....This doesn't spell death though...[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]So adding salt in a small dose to an ready stressed fish w/ elevated cortisol levels is all sometimes thats needed for it to drop dead. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]How the hell did you come to that conclusion? No, honestly, I want to know. Aside from what is stated above, specifically speaking of salt - it's introduction is not a death sentence, nor has it ever been. Salt not only reduces osmotic shock - which reduces stress - which I am not getting into right now, because frankly if you're making these claims with any level of comprehension, then I'd hope you'd understand osmosis... But it also promotes production of a fish's natural slime coat, and in doing so, allows for a damaged or thinning coat to be shed, removing with it bacteria / fungi / parasites. When speaking specifically of a number of external parasites that are attached to the fish's skin, often they are killed when they are exposed to the rapid increase in salt concentration, brought on by a salt treatment. This is because there is so much more salt in the water than there is in the parasite itself now, and the parasite dehydrates rapidly and its outer membrane collapses, much like a deflating balloon or an imploding building. The level of salt concentration is selected so that it will be toxic to the parasite, but not to the fish, and this concentration varies from species to species, and is not a one-dose-fits-all regimine as you'd have it sound.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]And in other cases of salt use, tropicals will develop renal failure. And once the kidneys go its good night.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Is that so? Maybe by prolonged, excessive exposure, of doses exceeding those generally recommened for safe use. But is not a principal of salt use in general. [/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]FFFA a very large Assoc of tropical fish farmers who breed everything under the sun for the tropical fish trade here in the US condemn its use.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Give them a cookie.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Talk to any Certified Fish Pathologist who works on tropicals and they all say the same thing.[/FONT][/FONT]
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All of them? Really? You know them all, have worked with them, spoken to them, read reports they've all produced, hypothesized alongside of them? I think not. Bottom line we come back to again, is that you seem to be under the misconception that the few you've researched or had any form of contact with, may have shared the same, or like opinions, but that would hardly account for the rest of the individuals within these fields. Additionally, one's opinion does not make something a fact, thus the beauty of science. Rather, practical and objective applications of said theories are tested and re-tested before any sorf of finite conclusion can be made. I'm not here to call you a liar, or talk down to you, or embarass you. My point in responding is that while you may raise some points from a biological/cellular level, even these are not applicable to this particular situation, nor most situations of similar circumstance. Yes there is some truth to what you say, but not in the context of which you've applied it. [/FONT]
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One's opinion will forever remain that. Until critical scientific documentation prooves otherwise, salt shall remain as it has for decades, a natural and beneficial remedy to a variety of conditions fish often face. And whether it be coupled with another form of treatment, or used singularly; so long as it's used properly, and according to the particular species' biological limitations, as well as in regard to the ailment in need of remedy, there stands to be no reason otherwise to discontinue it's use.
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