Sharks that should be banned from public sale

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That great white would have lived in that facility for years if it had not have started to eat her friends. I don't know why they decided to get rid of her and not just get rid of the outher sharks so she would have her own tank. What were they thinking keeping outher shark species with her anyways? She's a great white!!! :WHOA: Well I guess they thought they would be ok since she was much smaller than the outher sharks.

I followed her progress for a couple months and she was "FAT" !!! and very active. I must say I considered her to be in better shape than a wild female of the same age because of the regular feedings and very minimal chance of injuries which could lead to infections.
 
Also, that obsecure growth rate may not even be correct info....because we don't have growth rate info for wild animals that age. 100 lbs in six month seems low, but really that is an educated guess on my part. I base it on regular discussions with people who work with that particular species on a day to day basis.

Okay - Zoodiver. I 'm going to have to ask . Who do you know that works with Great White Sharks on a day to day basis.

To the best of my knowledge - there is a Shark expert in this world that works with this species on a daily basis. Are there shark expert that know alot about the Great White - Sure. But on a daily basis - I don't think so.

And by the way - for most juvenile sharks in general, a 16 inch increase in length & a 2.6 x increase in mass, in just 6 months - is actually quite incredible. But then Great Whites generally have a much higher metabolism than most sharks. But, if that growth rate is constant, then a Great White would reach 15ft & weigh over a ton in only 4 years after birth.

Even though the Great White may gain about 500 lbs a year on average. Surely you realize that a shark's weight is directly related to it's length & girth.

Case in point - if you take a juvenile Great White - increase her length by about 28%, and her girth by about 43% you will end up with about a 260% increase in the shark's overall mass(weight). Or put another way - a 4ft 11 in ,62lbs shark would increase to a 6ft 4in, & 162 lbs shark.

Case closed.
 
There was a team researching tiger sharks off a Northern coast of Africa awhile back. They had tagged one and were following it. They followed it for quite some time and claimed to have discovered that tigers migrate beyond anyone's assumptions. They ended up down of the Southern tip following it's movements. At that time they came upon another shark researcher who was based in that area, so they talked with him about the tiger movement and that it was in the area. The second researcher was shocked, because he hadn't seen the tiger. With more research, together they discovered the truth. The tracking beacon lead them to a white shark. What had happened was in the area where the two natural ranges crossed, the white ate the tiger. At that point, the tiger team was tracking the wrong shark. True story.
In reality, all MBA tracked for a month was the beacon. As far as I know, they never had visual confirmation on the white they released.

Anyone who says her shape was better in the tank, didn't see her in person. She was so beat up it was rediculous. Obviously, wild sharks are scarred and cut. But the condition of that animal was terrible. Her nose was rubbed raw and bleeding most of the time. And the line about keeping natural predators and prey together is no big deal. Many places have done it for years. So having a white in with other sharks is not an excuse.

KRJ - I mentioned, the guy I talk whites with is Chris (Fallows). Maybe you've heard of him? You say you've read all these books and what not, pretty sure you'll know who he is. We're setting up a time coming up so I can get out in the field with him. We also talk bulls since I've been known to have a good handle on them as well. I get to deal with a lot of the people hobbyists would refer to as "pros" or "fish celebs". It's not some big "ooo and ahh" thing for me, it's just my job.
 
I remember hearing about the adult(or subadult) Great White that was tagged off South Africa - then it swam to Australia, then back to South Africa. threseasrchers tracked by GPS, but they also confirmed it by visual sightings of the shark. This shows that great whites have can an do span entire oceans.

No, I wasn't able to go see the juvenile female Great White while the MBA had her. But in every picture of her that I've seen the nose is heavily scarred. The scar wasn't directly life threating while she was at the MBA. In the wild, sharks are often scarred, but rarely are such scars fatal - at least not directly. And she was still in good enough health to to continue to grow. But, In the ocean - it's entirely possible that she could have been picked off by a larger shark - or the tag simple fell off. We may never really know - at least unless she's someday re-captured.

I, personally I think the MBA considers it's a success - because they shattered the previous record of just 10 days. Also the fact that she was the first great white to regularly feed in captivity, as grow in captivity, as well as stay alive for the whole time is possible the reason it's called a "triumphant success".
 
Ok yup, that's it, can't take it anymore. I tried my best to stay out of this, but considering the issues brought up - things need to be clarified. There are so many I don't even know where to start!
Ok, lets begin with the initial idea to house a GW. Just so everyone is clear - THIS WAS NOT THE FIRST TIME IT WAS CONSIDERED OR ATTEMPTED OK. When the call came in that there was a Juv. white which had been caught by mistake, take no confusion from this - MBA was NOT the first notified. In fact, there were other reputable facilities who were offered the opportunity, and all of which turned it down ( not for lack of desire obviously!!!), mainly because they knew there was no sufficient holding area, or qualified staff to handle such a task on such short notice. That was the responsible move!! MBA jumped at the opportunity (out of ego if you ask me!). Sad truth is, below the surface of excitement buzzing through the staff, there was also huge amounts of questions and concerns about where/how/for how long/and so on. Everone was more than aware that we were in over our heads, but god forbid anyone on the outside saw the fear. It was portrayed as a total sucess, when indeed, it was anything but. She was beaten up a bit when she came in, and already had developing scar patterns (indicating that she was thriving before capture, as whites can be quite voratious when feeding, as well as fighting, and such scars are a normal - and good - indicator that this shark had been healthy, able to hold her own, and learning the "ropes" so to speak). It took her a few weeks to acclimate 100%, and navigate with some accuracy the enclosure which she was placed in (1,000,000 Gallon outer bay exhibit). But if you want to call anything a success - leave it to those few weeks, and those ONLY. But to be quite honest, IMO I wouldn't even give it that much credit. What the general public doesn't know, is that this was not the first time MBA attempted this - yes it really was done before with a white. You wanna know the sad fact behind the ugly political matter........ Some of the initial reasons for housing whites before this one, and keeping it silent, was that it was all about trial and error. Do you really think MB is the first to ever attempt to house a white??? Please!!! Give me a break, ask anyone in the field and they will all tell you that at some poiunt or another it has been - or still is - their ultimate goal. It's a race. There was a LOT kept quiet about what was going on both before and after the capture and release. Now when I mentioned earlier that other's were offered the opportunity before us, and that they all turned it down....... Wonder why? And why were they offered first? Simply this - they were honerable about their research, made it public knowledge about their goals, projects, and so forth, and were very realistic when it came to actually achieving that goal. MB on the other hand thought it would be better to keep it on the low, do what was needed (even if it meant going through a few sharks) to learn what they could, and adjust the details accordingly as to how they would be maintained, so that if and when the opportunity ever presented it's self (in a mannor such as this one was - a surprise and "emergency" on-the-spot issue), they could graciously accept, take in the shark, show amazing knowledge and adaptability to handling such species. What a crock! It is all a poker game, a poker game with not only your reputation on the line, but also your sponsors, potential grant offers, etc., etc., etc. But whatever, moving onto the "nose issue". There was a lot - - and I mean A LOT of political spin's placed on this issue to quell the fears - and burdening curiosities of concerned onlookers, that the only injuries sustained were from her being transported to us, and moved from the holding to the exhibit. YEAH <WHATEVER>!!! Fact of the matter is - yes she was a little cut up from her initial capture, but the origional wounds sustained from that were healing quite rapidly, and she was in good, solid condition when she came in. The aftermath of exhibitinig her was a whole other story!! If you had come to see her in person, there would have been no doubt in your mind that there was nothing "casual", "peaceful", or "comfortable" about her swimming, or overall state - as were the words used by the media to reassure the public. Not only was this a huge ethical controvery, but also a coorporate one. Her rostrum was completly mutilated, to a point that soon became obvious she would never recover from. She had slammed into the siding so many times, drug her body along the sides, and thrashed at times as if trying to wiggle out of a net or something, ending up crashing even more against the walls. From any educated eye it was obvious that she was going down hill really fast. MBA was not unaware of this either! At times (if close enough), visible chunks of flesh hanging from her wound could be seen. She developed sever infections, and deep absessed (puss filled) pockets in her glands, and often it was clearly inflamed and bloody to the naked eye. While yes the bologist directly presiding over her were well trained, and highly regarded, it was not enough, and even some of them felt she needed to be released, but it was not their call. The greed for the sheer amount of money which flowed in after her display was a driving force to milk the situation with little regard for her wellbeing (which should have been of the utmost importance!). Only after the public began to catch on and submit a plethora of complaints, prostest, and make threats, was the decision made to release her - and not before! She had attacked two soupfins which were enclosed with her, and so it was told to the media that this was the main reason for her release...... Bull $hit!!!!! It was publically announced, and a big deal was made of it, with the hopes that it would boost the faltering reputation of MB. pop-up trackers were secured onto the base of her dorsal, and she was released back into the ocean from the outer bay. They claimed to have tracked her for 30 days (which they swear was all the intended to track her for), but the truth is, while yes the pop-ups are designed to be specifically encoded with a release date, hardly EVER is it for only 30 days. Usually you see them within the 3-6 month range depending on the circumstances. Furthermore, unless the tag is physically recovered (which it hardly ever is), only limited amounts of data can be transferred via satelite transmitions. The available information from the track would not depict the health, or physical state of the animal, but more like the depth and distance in which it traveled. Her snout was sooooo damaged from not only the wounds but also the infections, that there is no way she would have ever regained full (or possibly even partial) uses of some of her sensories. That said (and the fact that MB was aware of this), how was she supposed to survive in the open? She was in a sense swimming blind, deaf, and dumb!!! Yes it's true that a lot was learned from this experience, but was it the first *uck up?? - - Umm NO, and will it be the last--- well I would hope so, but I doubt it. We have already tried again with other species, and things to remain unmentioned here, but once again, its been under wraps for the sake of waiting until opportunity presents its self. MBA is truly an amazing facility, it really it, but some of the things (like anywhere else) that have taken place here have left a sour taste in not only my mouth, but the mouths of many others. There is obviously a lot more detail, but some of that I am not at liberty to openly discuss. I told you what I could - and probably some of what I shouldnt have, but my intension was to clarify the issue which was brought up. I have to leave for oregon in about 30 minutes to assist in a transport, and I won't be back until Tuesday, so until then, I hope this provides some insight to the matter. Thanks.

--Emi
 
Here are Before vs. After photo's of the wound. The Before is when she was first transferred into the outer bay exhibit - notice the natural scar patterns vs. the after (months later) which clearly depicts (though it hardly does it justice to how nasty it truly was) the wounds she developed.

GW_before.jpg

GW2.jpg

GWclose.jpg
 
water_baby83;493127; said:
Ok yup, that's it, can't take it anymore. I tried my best to stay out of this, but considering the issues brought up - things need to be clarified. There are so many I don't even know where to start!
Ok, lets begin with the initial idea to house a GW. Just so everyone is clear - THIS WAS NOT THE FIRST TIME IT WAS CONSIDERED OR ATTEMPTED OK. When the call came in that there was a Juv. white which had been caught by mistake, take no confusion from this - MBA was NOT the first notified. In fact, there were other reputable facilities who were offered the opportunity, and all of which turned it down ( not for lack of desire obviously!!!), mainly because they knew there was no sufficient holding area, or qualified staff to handle such a task on such short notice. That was the responsible move!! MBA jumped at the opportunity (out of ego if you ask me!). Sad truth is, below the surface of excitement buzzing through the staff, there was also huge amounts of questions and concerns about where/how/for how long/and so on. Everone was more than aware that we were in over our heads, but god forbid anyone on the outside saw the fear. It was portrayed as a total sucess, when indeed, it was anything but. She was beaten up a bit when she came in, and already had developing scar patterns (indicating that she was thriving before capture, as whites can be quite voratious when feeding, as well as fighting, and such scars are a normal - and good - indicator that this shark had been healthy, able to hold her own, and learning the "ropes" so to speak). It took her a few weeks to acclimate 100%, and navigate with some accuracy the enclosure which she was placed in (1,000,000 Gallon outer bay exhibit). But if you want to call anything a success - leave it to those few weeks, and those ONLY. But to be quite honest, IMO I wouldn't even give it that much credit. What the general public doesn't know, is that this was not the first time MBA attempted this - yes it really was done before with a white. You wanna know the sad fact behind the ugly political matter........ Some of the initial reasons for housing whites before this one, and keeping it silent, was that it was all about trial and error. Do you really think MB is the first to ever attempt to house a white??? Please!!! Give me a break, ask anyone in the field and they will all tell you that at some poiunt or another it has been - or still is - their ultimate goal. It's a race. There was a LOT kept quiet about what was going on both before and after the capture and release. Now when I mentioned earlier that other's were offered the opportunity before us, and that they all turned it down....... Wonder why? And why were they offered first? Simply this - they were honerable about their research, made it public knowledge about their goals, projects, and so forth, and were very realistic when it came to actually achieving that goal. MB on the other hand thought it would be better to keep it on the low, do what was needed (even if it meant going through a few sharks) to learn what they could, and adjust the details accordingly as to how they would be maintained, so that if and when the opportunity ever presented it's self (in a mannor such as this one was - a surprise and "emergency" on-the-spot issue), they could graciously accept, take in the shark, show amazing knowledge and adaptability to handling such species. What a crock! It is all a poker game, a poker game with not only your reputation on the line, but also your sponsors, potential grant offers, etc., etc., etc. But whatever, moving onto the "nose issue". There was a lot - - and I mean A LOT of political spin's placed on this issue to quell the fears - and burdening curiosities of concerned onlookers, that the only injuries sustained were from her being transported to us, and moved from the holding to the exhibit. YEAH <WHATEVER>!!! Fact of the matter is - yes she was a little cut up from her initial capture, but the origional wounds sustained from that were healing quite rapidly, and she was in good, solid condition when she came in. The aftermath of exhibitinig her was a whole other story!! If you had come to see her in person, there would have been no doubt in your mind that there was nothing "casual", "peaceful", or "comfortable" about her swimming, or overall state - as were the words used by the media to reassure the public. Not only was this a huge ethical controvery, but also a coorporate one. Her rostrum was completly mutilated, to a point that soon became obvious she would never recover from. She had slammed into the siding so many times, drug her body along the sides, and thrashed at times as if trying to wiggle out of a net or something, ending up crashing even more against the walls. From any educated eye it was obvious that she was going down hill really fast. MBA was not unaware of this either! At times (if close enough), visible chunks of flesh hanging from her wound could be seen. She developed sever infections, and deep absessed (puss filled) pockets in her glands, and often it was clearly inflamed and bloody to the naked eye. While yes the bologist directly presiding over her were well trained, and highly regarded, it was not enough, and even some of them felt she needed to be released, but it was not their call. The greed for the sheer amount of money which flowed in after her display was a driving force to milk the situation with little regard for her wellbeing (which should have been of the utmost importance!). Only after the public began to catch on and submit a plethora of complaints, prostest, and make threats, was the decision made to release her - and not before! She had attacked two soupfins which were enclosed with her, and so it was told to the media that this was the main reason for her release...... Bull $hit!!!!! It was publically announced, and a big deal was made of it, with the hopes that it would boost the faltering reputation of MB. pop-up trackers were secured onto the base of her dorsal, and she was released back into the ocean from the outer bay. They claimed to have tracked her for 30 days (which they swear was all the intended to track her for), but the truth is, while yes the pop-ups are designed to be specifically encoded with a release date, hardly EVER is it for only 30 days. Usually you see them within the 3-6 month range depending on the circumstances. Furthermore, unless the tag is physically recovered (which it hardly ever is), only limited amounts of data can be transferred via satelite transmitions. The available information from the track would not depict the health, or physical state of the animal, but more like the depth and distance in which it traveled. Her snout was sooooo damaged from not only the wounds but also the infections, that there is no way she would have ever regained full (or possibly even partial) uses of some of her sensories. That said (and the fact that MB was aware of this), how was she supposed to survive in the open? She was in a sense swimming blind, deaf, and dumb!!! Yes it's true that a lot was learned from this experience, but was it the first *uck up?? - - Umm NO, and will it be the last--- well I would hope so, but I doubt it. We have already tried again with other species, and things to remain unmentioned here, but once again, its been under wraps for the sake of waiting until opportunity presents its self. MBA is truly an amazing facility, it really it, but some of the things (like anywhere else) that have taken place here have left a sour taste in not only my mouth, but the mouths of many others. There is obviously a lot more detail, but some of that I am not at liberty to openly discuss. I told you what I could - and probably some of what I shouldnt have, but my intension was to clarify the issue which was brought up. I have to leave for oregon in about 30 minutes to assist in a transport, and I won't be back until Tuesday, so until then, I hope this provides some insight to the matter. Thanks.

--Emi


****!!! :WHOA:
 
Wow - Water_baby. Nice way to prove your points.

A picture - really does equal a thousand words - or in this case a couple of thousand.

And yes - I'll agree that also helps to explain the real reason why the MBA had to release her.

Personally I think only way that any large public aquarium well every keep a great white perfectly health in captivity longer than the MBA did - is to do the following.


- First, the shark would have to be in excellent health, and a juvenile between 5-10ft in length.
- Second the tank would have to a gigantic round or oval tank - say at least 4 million gallons - or at least 130'-140' in diameter x 40' deep.

- Third, No sharp corners or electrical voltage any where in the tank.

- Fourth, The Aquarium must have a very skilled staff of Shark Biologists.


Just a few thoughts
 
Hey guys, my laptop is up and running and I have a wireless D-link attatched, so I have it with me (mainly for data tracks, but whatever, LOL). Anyways, my point is - whenever we stop for fuel and later tonight when we bunk, I can access the internet as long as there is an active network within my general vacinity. That said I will try to keep up with this thread as much as I can that way if anyone has any more questions, I can do my best (within my limits of "confidentiality" Bull $hit) to answer and explain any you may have regarding this particular issue. I did want to state quickly though, that Zoodiver is right on, and he really does know what he's talking about (I promise, LOL). With that said, Matt - I could just PM this to you, but I am in a hurry and too lazy right now.... I just wanted to see if you had spoken to chris lately? If so, how is the lawsuit he and his wife filed for the photos coming along? Anyways guys, sorry that was off topic, hahaha I am trying to kill two birds with one stone (so to speak, though the ethical consideration of that saying has always bugged me! LMAO ok ok ok I gotta run, just wanted to send this real quick, gotta get back on the road. Catch you all later tonight probably! Take care.

-Emi
 
water_baby83;493494; said:
With that said, Matt - I could just PM this to you, but I am in a hurry and too lazy right now.... I just wanted to see if you had spoken to chris lately? If so, how is the lawsuit he and his wife filed for the photos coming along?
-Emi

Next time I email him, I'll ask.

Whites aren't to be looked at like any other normal captive shark. Everything we have set in our minds about how to keep sharks needs to be thrown out the window with this species.
 
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