Speciation: Historic, Contemporary & Ideological

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I assume you noted that I live in Iowa?!! One of the biggest ag states. And yes, I happen to vehemently agree with you that monoculture has been a huge mistake. But my point wasn't to sidetrack a fish forum to midwest farming methodology; it was to answer your initial premise. However, the dastardly ascendance of monoculture has zero to do with the success of genetic manipulation on the food supply, both plant and animal.

The original point to be made here was to challenge the "black magic" mentallity of many people who feel that a new species evolved in nature is great but one created by man is a horid, sacrilige to God Almighty! If the Germans are capable of creating beautiful Malawi Peacocks that color up at a young size so that people will buy them, more power to 'em. If I can project and accomplish a new CA hybrid that breeds true and is a new color combination, then let's go! We're benefiting the leisure time of our fellow man. Did I say anywhere that I think we should release these back into the swamps of Costa Rica? Hell no. Is somebody going to do it? Probably. So is the answer to a few errant idiots to blindly obsess against ALL hybridizing as a generalization? And in the process effect the mindsets of those who may develop the next leap in food production?

We cannot develop social stigma based on the few fools who misuse knowledge. We must create a classroom of inquisitiveness, inspired by the greats that more than compensate the fools. Mendel. Burbank.
 
Shhh. I love to chime in. But I'm on a touch screen and cannot type very fast. I'm glad there are some intelligent thought process behind all the fish keeping. I thought for sure the formalin has pickled most of our brains already. Or maybe we have evolved to be immune to formalin and fingers adapting to swipe on this keyboard less screen.
 
Being the devil's advocate that I have always been. I see what Captinahab is saying. And I've said it in the past as well the problem is that many of the native fish keepers and cichlids guys are sooo bent on preserving a species and so excited to find a few extra scales on a frontosa needing to name it gibberosa. When in fact that there are same species with more diversity still being considered as the same species.

For all I know a guy could have accidentky made a hybrid of two cichlids in his local pond then releasing it into the wild in the next village 100 years ago. Now Heiko Bleher goes there to this remote village and finds this fish established in this remote town and sends it out for scientific description and sure enough it fit the near by species but not exact making it a new specie. And its is named cichlasome bleheri
 
I believe that nothing is concrete. Most everything is relative. Nihilism existentialism is what I find myself most of the times. Same with science. There is not an absolute right or wrong either. Humans are a specie on this earth. Steward or not, doing good or not. We are war we are, another specie roaming the earth wiping out some while letting others flourish.

Maybe well end up wiping out most of the larger animals that are not commercially important. Leaving only cows and chickens and a few zoo specimens. The most prosperous species remaining will be ants, bacteria and viruses. They'll evetually take over this earth. And the ruins that remain will be a modern city covered in algae animals turned into fossilized pillars roads covered in molds!
 
Jakeca77, That brings up one of biggest questions; the people who claim to be the true evolution devottees are the very ones who think that hybrids are bad??!!! Hybridization is a huge component of that theory.

fugupuff, well hopefully it's obvious that I am neither religious zealot nor evolutionist soldier! I think there is a LOT that we (society) have no clue about. And you're totally correct in your fictional postulation about cichlasoma bleheri!! Not only is that sort of thing possible, it absolutely has been going on for centuries both human aided and natural. I could make a huge list just from memory, but the "new" Red Wolf in the US north east is a likely example.
 
I posted this a while back in another discussion involving hybrids, and it seems like a good fit in this topic as well.

The term "pure", "wild caught", or F1 equates to nothing more than a bucket of warm spit unless those fishes provenance can be traced back to the original wild source, including the geographical location of where those fish were collected. And even then, the term "pure" or even "wild" can sometimes become open to interpretation.

The Midas complex is a classic example of why the geographical location of where the original wild fish were collected can later become so important. When one goes back to the original A. citrinellus, and A. labiatus that were collected & imported in the late 60's early 70's you will find that there was much confusion as to what was pure, even by those such as George Barlow who were collecting & studying this genus in the wild. This topic is mentioned in the following article by Paul Loiselle (originally published in 1980)

http://www.cichlidae.com/article.php?id=106

....... where he states;

Second, the small numbers of fish initially imported, the confusion over the number of species involved and the great eagerness to spawn them led initially to a great deal of indiscriminate hybridization. While all these cichlids display strong preferences for conspecific mates, they will hybridize in a no-choice situation (Bayliss, 1976). There is even some evidence that introgressive hybridization between A. labiatus and A. citrinellus may have occurred in the past in some of the smaller crater lakes (Barlow, 1976). The progeny of such shotgun marriages are as viable and fertile as the parental species. Thus the first few tank-reared generations were pretty much of a genetic omelette. With the passage of time, these fish have converged phenotypically on A. labiatus. Subsequent commercial importations have consisted exclusively of large-lipped, bright red animals. These obvious A. labiatus have been pond-bred in Florida for nearly ten years, and their offspring have dominated the market during this interval. The original hybrids have been effectively swamped through crossing with such pure A. labiatus.

Today, most tank-reared Red Devils are phenotypically recognizable A. labiatus, though one still encounters the odd individual whose deeper body and blunter snout proclaim the presence of a Midas Cichlid in the rock pile in the recent past!

A long but very interesting read from a paper released in 2010 that clearly describes how confusing the entire Midas complex is, much more so than George Barlow initially thought, or even Paul Loiselle when he wrote the above linked to article 30 years ago.

http://www.gaianicaragua.org/Geiger_et_al_2010.pdf

Not a simple case – A first comprehensive phylogenetic hypothesis for the Midas cichlid complex in Nicaragua (Teleostei: Cichlidae: Amphilophus)


Matthias F. Geiger, Jeffrey K. McCrary, Ulrich K. Schliewen


Bavarian State Collection of Zoology (ZSM), Department of Ichthyology, Münchhausenstr. 21, 81247 Munich, Germany b Fundación Nicaragüense Pro-desarrollo Comunitario Integral (FUNDECI/GAIA), Estación Biológica, Laguna de Apoyo Nature Reserve, Nicaragua





4.3. Three species vs. multi-species concept with notes on diversity
While previous and also some recent authors distinguished between
a number of species based on morphological characters (e.g.

Elmer et al., 2010b; Meek, 1907; McKaye et al., 2002; Stauffer et al.,


2008




), other authors assign numerous forms to only three species,

namely




A. citrinellus, A. zaliosus and A. labiatus (Wilson et al., 2000;

Barluenga et al., 2004, 2006a; Bunje et al., 2007




). The ongoing dispute

about




Amphilophus taxonomy (e.g. Villa, 1976b; Stauffer et al.,

2002




) is certainly based on the aforementioned high phenotypic

diversity within the Midas cichlid complex which sometimes hampers
ready identification in the field. To consider this issue adequately
especially when testing for alternative speciation
scenarios it is necessary to stick to a conservative taxonomy and
only assign taxonomically valid species names to unambiguously
identifiable individuals and not to each phenotype that is similar
due to only one character, i.e. ‘‘elongate body form” or ‘‘thick lips”.
According to the most recent taxonomy, the Midas cichlid complex
contains nine described species at the moment, but several more
are awaiting their proper systematic treatment (




McKaye et al.,

2002




, Geiger et al., in preparation).






In the case of Midas/Red Devil crosses (MidDevils), clearly the origins of of this fish had nothing to do with breeders or vendors being unscrupulous, or experimenting with hybrid crosses, and more to do with a genus that had yet to be fully understood or properly classified before commercial breeders began pumping them out by the millions. While some might consider these actions as being reckless, I personally believe that this takes place by the so called purists much more than realized. In the case of the earlier midas/rd mixes, that bell can't be unrung.


Fugupuff's comment about Heiko Bleher had me laughing, but it reminded me of an area in Lake Malawi that's referred to as "the aquarium", where some of the earlier collectors/exporters would dump fish from various locations in the lake, which I would assume was done for easier collection, vs spending 2 days in a boat to get to the original collection locations.



A former exporter on Lake Tanganyika (Mark Young) once stated to me that some collectors simply make up "sexy" names for certain fish, and that this very thing has taken place within the industry for years. He even stated that unless you go out with the native divers they will often collect certain variants closer to home, in safer waters (as in non crocodile infested waters), and then BS as to where they were actually collected. In their minds the variant/species looks close enough, it shaves off several hrs in the boat to get to the location, and is much safer, so why not? For this reason he always went out on every dive so he knew exactly where each variant or species was being collected. Other exporters do not take part in the collection process.​



Then you have exporters on the same lake as above that breed fish in concrete vats, and list the offspring as (cough-cough) wild caught. To make matters worse, from those I have personally spoken to that have been there, and seen these vats, it was stated that one species could easily jump from vat to vat and cross breed with each other. But again, everything & anything was sold as wild fish. One can only imagine what type of genetic drift is taking place in these types of situations.​



IMO one can either choose to keep & enjoy some of these "unpure" fish for their beauty, and their personality/behaviour, or not. I don't see the planet being destroyed by the fish one chooses to keep or breed in a glass box. :)
 
RD, my perspective on the issue is pretty similar.

What I find so odd (pointless?) is the fanatical differentiation between fish that have been line bred to be aestheticallly pleasing...and fish that have been hybridized (and probably line bred) to be aethetically pleasing. As if there is some ethical bright line between the two (Hybrid = BAD!!! & Line-bred = OK)...

The "Red Devil" complex is a perfect example of how poorly the species concept applies to many cichlids. One scientist could pull in a seine of them and describe a dozen species. Another could lump them as one species. And yet another could describe varients of one or more species. Oddly enough, Mother Nature doesn't develop life in standard, easily sorted packages! Changes in taxonomy (as a result of one scientist vs. another working on a group of fish) can change a particular fish from being ethical vs. unethical to keep. This is silly...

But this really gets away from the bigger point: Man has been manipulating fish for his aesthetic desires since, oh, 200 AD (colored carp). The foundation of the aquarium hobby was built on fancy fish (many of them hybrid livebearers), discus, angels, etc. People like colorful fish. They beautify and entertain. And developing strains of them takes an unbelievable amount of patience and skill. Just label them correctly...

That said, there's merit in attempting to maintain wild-type lines of fish. I have way too many different "convicts" from all over Central America...and each is different and unique (and cool). I know the people who collected most of them...which is really different than believing what's on the bag from an auction or LFS.

Matt
 
Not too sure why the quotes in my last post came out all funged up, got to luv the new & improved MFK.



What I find so odd (pointless?) is the fanatical differentiation between fish that have been line bred to be aestheticallly pleasing...and fish that have been hybridized (and probably line bred) to be aethetically pleasing. As if there is some ethical bright line between the two (Hybrid = BAD!!! & Line-bred = OK)...

Exactly ......

I have kept & bred many "pure/wild" species of fish, and agree that there is defintely merit in maintaining wild-type lines of fish. No argument there. I just don't understand the logic behind the hating of hybrid aquarium species? As long as they are listed/sold for what they are, IMO it's all good.
 
I've never understood the antipathy either... xenophobia, perhaps?

I have kept & bred many "pure/wild" species of fish, and agree that there is defintely merit in maintaining wild-type lines of fish. No argument there. I just don't understand the logic behind the hating of hybrid aquarium species? As long as they are listed/sold for what they are, IMO it's all good.
 
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