Speciation: Historic, Contemporary & Ideological

[RD.]

LOL, that could be.

 

[fugupuff]

Dogs. Man's best friend. Had to go though centuries of line breeding, fostering of mutations, and probably hybridizing for what? To have a docile, neutered, best friend that will stick by your side and make you laugh on demand. Sounds pretty sinister to me!

 

[captainahab]

Xenophobia seems to be the only explanation. I can't comprehend the mindsets of people who are so militaristically against hybrids. I tend to think it's ignorance, simply because it is beyond my understanding.

Just gonna brain storm here....here is a list of inter-species hybrids that most consider pure species;

Corn
Domestic Pigeons (arguable)
Domestic Dogs (arguable)
large percentage of lumber trees
Shasta Daisy
Garden/Bearded Iris
CalSib Iris (a phenomenal story of a true man made species)
Pardancanda norrisii (another true man made species of flower)
nearly all grapes
some citrus

oh, and let's not forget that hybridizing is in the process of saving both the American Elm and the American Chestnut from imported disease.

Bet you didn't know that Swiss Chard is the same species as a beet?!
or that cabbage, broccoli and cauliflower are all the same species?!

So many things that are being created out there that the main stream, uninformed or uninspired are totally unaware of. And it isn't necessary that everyone knows the origins of the ornamental grass in their front yard....unless of course they are in midst diatribe against me for crossing my Aulonocara baenshi with my S. fryeri!!!

 

[andregurov]

Man has been tampering with the planet's bounty since he first appeared, and much of that tampering has been a boon. I'll not disagree that variety is the spice of life (or that scientific investigation into hybridization of both plants and animals has had and will continue to have tremendous benefit), but I don't simply extend that credit to the world of fish-keeping. As others have noted, the many "strains" or species of convicts present a fish-keeping joy. It would be a shame to lose that because of careless interbreeding. I've met many hobbyists who take great pride in breeding hybrids - whether accidentally or by intent - in their home tanks, as they should; I fear that the machinations of business and our time may erode those clear lines into something akin to buying a trimac out of Thailand.

Anyone here read Dirty Tackle? I - like the brave protagonist who is Artur Boruc - fear THE CORN.

 

[dogofwar]

I think that the key here is to understand that there is a difference between "careless interbreeding" and the skill that it takes to develop a stable, attractive ornamental line of fish. It's the difference between "I have a tank of mbuna and one of the females is holding"...and a specific line of flowerhorn (or fancy discus or "swordtail"), for example. Indiscriminate breeding is bad, whether with different species or (allegedly) "pure" ones.

I think that there is a key difference, too, between what goes on in the confines of the home aquarium...and what goes on in the wild. The risk of flowehorns taking over the native streams of, say, Florida from the oscars, Hemichromis, Plecos, peacock bass, etc, etc, etc. and other non-native (but pure!) species is next to nothing. The risk of confusing a flowerhorn with anything other than a Trimac is also next to nothing. And if people want a verifiably "pure" Trimac, they should buy one from a source that can provide the provenance of the fish. Same with convicts or anything else.

Matt

 

[yoganathan_kn]

yeah,but it should be natural selection and it should not be man made. without any long range study gm foods and animals are created which may affect the environment radically.
in india they introduced a australian thorn tree for wood, which grows in arid conditions, now it's a pest and has overcome the local trees and plants.

 

[dogofwar]

There's a big difference between what goes on in your fish tank...and what goes on in nature...

As an aside, the fish in your avatar is man made...Mother Nature wouldn't create white oscars... YEARS of selective breeding (and inbreeding) did... Man likes pretty fish.

Matt

yeah,but it should be natural selection and it should not be man made. without any long range study gm foods and animals are created which may affect the environment radically.
in india they introduced a australian thorn tree for wood, which grows in arid conditions, now it's a pest and has overcome the local trees and plants.

 

[Water]

I think that the key here is to understand that there is a difference between "careless interbreeding" and the skill that it takes to develop a stable, attractive ornamental line of fish. It's the difference between "I have a tank of mbuna and one of the females is holding"...and a specific line of flowerhorn (or fancy discus or "swordtail"), for example. Indiscriminate breeding is bad, whether with different species or (allegedly) "pure" ones.

I think that there is a key difference, too, between what goes on in the confines of the home aquarium...and what goes on in the wild. The risk of flowehorns taking over the native streams of, say, Florida from the oscars, Hemichromis, Plecos, peacock bass, etc, etc, etc. and other non-native (but pure!) species is next to nothing. The risk of confusing a flowerhorn with anything other than a Trimac is also next to nothing. And if people want a verifiably "pure" Trimac, they should buy one from a source that can provide the provenance of the fish. Same with convicts or anything else.

Matt

There's a big difference between what goes on in your fish tank...and what goes on in nature...

As an aside, the fish in your avatar is man made...Mother Nature wouldn't create white oscars... YEARS of selective breeding (and inbreeding) did... Man likes pretty fish.

Matt

Low grade Flowerhorns look like Trimacs.. and there are albino variants of all fish.. They just wouldn't make it long in the wild thats why theres not many in the wild and that gene is recessive.

People that are against hybrids seem to attack Flowerhorns the most. And who was the tard that says hybridizing everything else besides everything in fishkeeping is okay. Honestly, is a fish in a tank going to destroy ecosystems? LOL I'd worry about real threats like overfishing and pollution before I worry about a 12" fish floating around in a glass tank.

 

[RD.]

and there are albino variants of all fish.. They just wouldn't make it long in the wild thats why theres not many in the wild and that gene is recessive.

While I don't know about some of the various CA/SA cichlids, the vast majority of albino African cichlids in this hobby are man made hybrids created from selective breeding by commercial breeders in Florida, and Asia. There is nothing "natural" about them.

 

[dogofwar]

And certainly NOT verifiably "pure" (i.e. one species and one collecting location).

To be perfectly honest, the fish that I keep - the ones that are interesting to me - are wild-type convicts, acaras, chanchitos, eartheaters, etc. (and not Flowerhorns or other "fancy" fish). I just don't understand all of the acrimony.

Matt

While I don't know about some of the various CA/SA cichlids, the vast majority of albino African cichlids in this hobby are man made hybrids created from selective breeding by commercial breeders in Florida, and Asia. There is nothing "natural" about them.