Speciation: Historic, Contemporary & Ideological
- Thread starter captainahab
- Start date
Yes, there are some natural albino variants, but when it comes to cichlids, as Matt just stated they are not exactly pure fish, collected & bred from the same location. In the case of African cichlids from Malawi, they are almost all man-made hybrids.
This is all well documented, just not well advertised.
This is all well documented, just not well advertised.
Noted upstream that some hybrids and some wild releases (accidental and intentional) go awry. True. But without the experimentation that created that problem, we would all be living in the stone age. It's the cost of development.
Here in Iowa we have an introduced wild rose called multiflora that was intentionally planted around farm ponds to prevent erosion. It is now a huge weed problem. Have fought them for untold hours. But gladly do so knowing that progress is not free.
White man massively changed the environment of the midwest; what was once miles of uninterupted grassland is now savanah or forest in many places. So? Does that make white man evil? Do you know why it was grassland when we got here? Because the plains indians hunted with fire and over the eons selected for botanicals that could survive fire. (a six month study result). So....is the Native American evil? What about before that? I have no doubt that someone or something else effected the environment.
Extrapolate backwards; if you elimanate all genetic and biological manipulation, where do you think we would be? Utopia? Don't think so.
Here in Iowa we have an introduced wild rose called multiflora that was intentionally planted around farm ponds to prevent erosion. It is now a huge weed problem. Have fought them for untold hours. But gladly do so knowing that progress is not free.
White man massively changed the environment of the midwest; what was once miles of uninterupted grassland is now savanah or forest in many places. So? Does that make white man evil? Do you know why it was grassland when we got here? Because the plains indians hunted with fire and over the eons selected for botanicals that could survive fire. (a six month study result). So....is the Native American evil? What about before that? I have no doubt that someone or something else effected the environment.
Extrapolate backwards; if you elimanate all genetic and biological manipulation, where do you think we would be? Utopia? Don't think so.
This is probably the most intellectually driven thread I've read in a while on MFK, can we pin this on top, love a healthy debate.
I'm thinking if 2 species can b breed together in captivity, what makes u think it doesn't happen in nature too given the conditions? Like for example if in their natural habitat due to some drought or flood event a male and female of different species end up in an isolated area? If they do it in our tanks they'll probably do it nature and who’s to say it didn't happen before? and their offspring breed with both of those species or interbred thus creating new species for centuries. And then we come along and try to classify them and consider them a different kind. Of course the weak hybrids would perish in the ecosystem and the strong would establish themselves as a part of that ecosystem. Natural selection.
I don't see anything wrong in it, since people have been making hybrids for ages crossbreeding domestic animals and I don't see any disastrous effects from it. I read about a problem in Australia when colonizers brought in domestic cows and started herding them there establishing a meat industry, they had a huge issue with piles of cow dung. So they thought about how to solve this and then they got to an idea to introduce the scarab bug. Problem solved.
so even if we do mess up smth in the ecosystem we surely have the ability and means to make it right again, but species of animals have been perishing from the face of the earth even before humans messed with hybrids and even before humans ever existed. But we do have the power to notice if there is any endangered species out there like whales or buffalos or Bengal tigers all endangered as a result of human excessive hunting rather then crossbreeding or introducing new species into their ecosystem, being that humans are after all the ultimate predator and as such we don't tolerate other predators on our territory. Why would a tiger or a wolf eat my sheep instead of me? So I shot the tiger and eat the sheep
Just like any other predator would do, but at least we have our brain to acknowledge the defeated predators and protect them when they no longer pose a threat to us. And I'm not even gonna get into the Native Americans example we all know what happened there.
So humans have been a threat to the ecosystems everywhere they went even if they don't create hybrids, so I think hybrids is the least thing we should worry about when it comes to destroying habitats or other species. Bottom line if smth goes wrong we'll either hunt it down to extinction or introduce other species to make a balance. No biggie
and certainly no need to panic and go apocalyptic over some fish hybrids 
I don't see anything wrong in it, since people have been making hybrids for ages crossbreeding domestic animals and I don't see any disastrous effects from it. I read about a problem in Australia when colonizers brought in domestic cows and started herding them there establishing a meat industry, they had a huge issue with piles of cow dung. So they thought about how to solve this and then they got to an idea to introduce the scarab bug. Problem solved.
so even if we do mess up smth in the ecosystem we surely have the ability and means to make it right again, but species of animals have been perishing from the face of the earth even before humans messed with hybrids and even before humans ever existed. But we do have the power to notice if there is any endangered species out there like whales or buffalos or Bengal tigers all endangered as a result of human excessive hunting rather then crossbreeding or introducing new species into their ecosystem, being that humans are after all the ultimate predator and as such we don't tolerate other predators on our territory. Why would a tiger or a wolf eat my sheep instead of me? So I shot the tiger and eat the sheep
Just like any other predator would do, but at least we have our brain to acknowledge the defeated predators and protect them when they no longer pose a threat to us. And I'm not even gonna get into the Native Americans example we all know what happened there. So humans have been a threat to the ecosystems everywhere they went even if they don't create hybrids, so I think hybrids is the least thing we should worry about when it comes to destroying habitats or other species. Bottom line if smth goes wrong we'll either hunt it down to extinction or introduce other species to make a balance. No biggie
and certainly no need to panic and go apocalyptic over some fish hybrids How about some hybrid fish success stories;
Hybrid Bluegill.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This fish is the number one stocked sport fish today. The Hybrid Bluegill is crossed between a male bluegill and female green sunfish. This particular cross produces a fish with the large mouth of the sunfish and the aggressiveness of the bluegill, which enables the fish to grow faster and larger than common bream. This unique combination is ideally suited for children learning to fish, all the way up to the fly fisherman looking for a new challenge. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This fish will reproduce twice per year which makes it ideally suited for feeding a new or existing bass population. However, this fish will reproduce at 90% male so it won't take over your pond like most bream. It will feed on a commercial feed with annual growth rates of up to 1/2 to 3/4 pound per season. With a good management program in place these fish can reach weights of 2 to 2 1/2 pounds and exceptional fish will reach the weight of 3 pounds or greater! Make the Hybrid Bluegill a part of your management program and reap the rewards for years to come. http://www.dunnsfishfarm.com/fish_types.htm#bluegill[/FONT]
Hybrid Striped Bass.
Hybrid striped bass culture began in the southeastern U.S. in the late 1980s and has rapidly developed into a major aquaculture industry. Almost every state in the southern region has hybrid striped bass producers, but most of the production is in Mississippi, North Carolina, Texas, Florida, Louisiana, and South Carolina. In 1997, the total regional production of hybrid striped bass was an estimated 5 million pounds, about 50% of total U.S. production, with a farm-gate value of approximately $12.5 million. The industry has been expanding at a rate of 10-15% per year for the past five years.
Most farm-raised hybrid striped bass are made in the hatchery by fertilizing female white bass (Morone chrysops) eggs with sperm from male striped bass (Morone saxatilis). This cross produces a fish which is sometimes called a sunshine bass or reciprocal cross hybrid striped bass. The hybrid is distinguishable from one of its parents, the striped bass, by the broken horizontal lines that run along the sides of its body. Hybridization of the white bass and the striped bass produces a fish with a greater tolerance to extremes in temperature and dissolved oxygen than either of its parents and is thus better suited for pond culture.
The majority of hybrid striped bass producers in the southern region raise their fish in freshwater ponds. Most producers are involved with the growout phase of production and purchase their fry or fingerlings from hatcheries. At 18 to 24 month of age (1 - 2 lb.), marketable hybrid striped bass are harvested by seine and immediately packed whole on ice for shipment to market. No additional processing is needed until the fish reach the consumer. http://srac.msstate.edu/bass.htm
Hybrid Bluegill.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This fish is the number one stocked sport fish today. The Hybrid Bluegill is crossed between a male bluegill and female green sunfish. This particular cross produces a fish with the large mouth of the sunfish and the aggressiveness of the bluegill, which enables the fish to grow faster and larger than common bream. This unique combination is ideally suited for children learning to fish, all the way up to the fly fisherman looking for a new challenge. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This fish will reproduce twice per year which makes it ideally suited for feeding a new or existing bass population. However, this fish will reproduce at 90% male so it won't take over your pond like most bream. It will feed on a commercial feed with annual growth rates of up to 1/2 to 3/4 pound per season. With a good management program in place these fish can reach weights of 2 to 2 1/2 pounds and exceptional fish will reach the weight of 3 pounds or greater! Make the Hybrid Bluegill a part of your management program and reap the rewards for years to come. http://www.dunnsfishfarm.com/fish_types.htm#bluegill[/FONT]
Hybrid Striped Bass.
Hybrid striped bass culture began in the southeastern U.S. in the late 1980s and has rapidly developed into a major aquaculture industry. Almost every state in the southern region has hybrid striped bass producers, but most of the production is in Mississippi, North Carolina, Texas, Florida, Louisiana, and South Carolina. In 1997, the total regional production of hybrid striped bass was an estimated 5 million pounds, about 50% of total U.S. production, with a farm-gate value of approximately $12.5 million. The industry has been expanding at a rate of 10-15% per year for the past five years.
Most farm-raised hybrid striped bass are made in the hatchery by fertilizing female white bass (Morone chrysops) eggs with sperm from male striped bass (Morone saxatilis). This cross produces a fish which is sometimes called a sunshine bass or reciprocal cross hybrid striped bass. The hybrid is distinguishable from one of its parents, the striped bass, by the broken horizontal lines that run along the sides of its body. Hybridization of the white bass and the striped bass produces a fish with a greater tolerance to extremes in temperature and dissolved oxygen than either of its parents and is thus better suited for pond culture.
The majority of hybrid striped bass producers in the southern region raise their fish in freshwater ponds. Most producers are involved with the growout phase of production and purchase their fry or fingerlings from hatcheries. At 18 to 24 month of age (1 - 2 lb.), marketable hybrid striped bass are harvested by seine and immediately packed whole on ice for shipment to market. No additional processing is needed until the fish reach the consumer. http://srac.msstate.edu/bass.htm
Splake Trout.
The splake has been in production since the early 1870's. Reproduction has only occurred and been documented in hatcheries. Splake have been introduced into a variety of waters in the U.S. and Canada over the past 100 years. Even with such a large distribution, there is no credible documentation of splake reproduction in the wild.
Splake have demonstrated several attributes that suggest they can out-perform stocked brook trout in many Maine waters. Splake have displayed a higher percentage of survival to age III, greater returns to angler's at large sizes, and the ability to utilize rough fish as forage in waters where competition limits brook trout growth. Splake can greatly enhance the diversity of opportunity available to anglers in the State of Maine. Data collected from study waters comparing spring yearling splake to spring yearling brook trout are conclusive. Splake have out-performed hatchery brook trout in all study waters. Quality fisheries, in terms of both size and catch rate, may be achieved in many waters where currently there are no active stocking programs or where hatchery fish are providing poor or marginal results. They have demonstrated several attributes that suggest they can out-perform stocked brook trout in many Maine waters and have displayed a higher percentage of survival to age III, greater returns to angler's at large sizes, and the ability to utilize rough fish as forage in waters where competition limits brook trout growth. The splake's unique ability to feed on rough fish, such as perch and bass, is also well documented. Using splake for management in this way can also be a valuable tool for fish managers. Managers must use the best possible science when stockingthem in fragile watersheds to help control or eliminate unwanted species. The splake provides fishing opportunity where none had existed before, while protecting the genetic integrity of Wild and Native Fish. http://www.thelocalhookupma.com/id43.html
The splake has been in production since the early 1870's. Reproduction has only occurred and been documented in hatcheries. Splake have been introduced into a variety of waters in the U.S. and Canada over the past 100 years. Even with such a large distribution, there is no credible documentation of splake reproduction in the wild.
Splake have demonstrated several attributes that suggest they can out-perform stocked brook trout in many Maine waters. Splake have displayed a higher percentage of survival to age III, greater returns to angler's at large sizes, and the ability to utilize rough fish as forage in waters where competition limits brook trout growth. Splake can greatly enhance the diversity of opportunity available to anglers in the State of Maine. Data collected from study waters comparing spring yearling splake to spring yearling brook trout are conclusive. Splake have out-performed hatchery brook trout in all study waters. Quality fisheries, in terms of both size and catch rate, may be achieved in many waters where currently there are no active stocking programs or where hatchery fish are providing poor or marginal results. They have demonstrated several attributes that suggest they can out-perform stocked brook trout in many Maine waters and have displayed a higher percentage of survival to age III, greater returns to angler's at large sizes, and the ability to utilize rough fish as forage in waters where competition limits brook trout growth. The splake's unique ability to feed on rough fish, such as perch and bass, is also well documented. Using splake for management in this way can also be a valuable tool for fish managers. Managers must use the best possible science when stockingthem in fragile watersheds to help control or eliminate unwanted species. The splake provides fishing opportunity where none had existed before, while protecting the genetic integrity of Wild and Native Fish. http://www.thelocalhookupma.com/id43.html
Tiger Muskie.
Tiger muskie are the bad boys of freshwater sport fish. They get big and mean and have nasty dispositions. Catching a big tiger is an exciting event and a milestone that fishermen brag about.
A hybrid cross between muskellunge and northern pike, the tiger muskie exhibits characteristics of both parents. It has an elongated, tube-like body with gray-green vertical bars on its sides. It’s a fierce predator that does well in reservoirs where there is plenty of forage. It’s renowned as a sport fish because it can grow to a large size, it readily attacks lures and it fights like, well, like a tiger.
Tiger muskie do not normally reproduce and so their numbers can be controlled directly by regulating stocking and harvest. In Utah, they are being used effectively as a management tool to control the number of pan and rough fish in reservoirs. Before tigers were introduced in Pineview, the reservoir was overpopulated with perch and they were stunted — most running 5-7 inches. Now the perch population is healthier and fish run 9-11 inches. http://www.utahoutdoors.com/pages/tigerfacts.htm
Tiger muskie are the bad boys of freshwater sport fish. They get big and mean and have nasty dispositions. Catching a big tiger is an exciting event and a milestone that fishermen brag about.
A hybrid cross between muskellunge and northern pike, the tiger muskie exhibits characteristics of both parents. It has an elongated, tube-like body with gray-green vertical bars on its sides. It’s a fierce predator that does well in reservoirs where there is plenty of forage. It’s renowned as a sport fish because it can grow to a large size, it readily attacks lures and it fights like, well, like a tiger.
Tiger muskie do not normally reproduce and so their numbers can be controlled directly by regulating stocking and harvest. In Utah, they are being used effectively as a management tool to control the number of pan and rough fish in reservoirs. Before tigers were introduced in Pineview, the reservoir was overpopulated with perch and they were stunted — most running 5-7 inches. Now the perch population is healthier and fish run 9-11 inches. http://www.utahoutdoors.com/pages/tigerfacts.htm
Hybrid Tilapia. (YUM)
The ND 21 is a hybrid Tilapia cross between:
· Female O. nilotica ND-2 Tilapia family line
· Male O. aurea ND-1 Tilapia family line
The ND-2 Tilapia O. nilotica line, and the ND-1 Tilapia O. aurea line are a result of continuous selection and propagation within the specific families, originally obtained from nature many years ago. The original specimen are regarded as ecotypes.
The economic traits of the ND-21 Tilapia hybrids are:
All-Male population without hormonal treatment for sex reversal
The ND-21 Tilapia hybrid are all males. The proportion of Tilapia males in any spawning cycle is ~ 98%, without hormonal treatment, and provided APT operational instructions are adhered to. Actually, the progeny is 100% genetic males. The lower percent reflects penetration of foreign fish, assuming stern protection methods are used.
Docile behavior
ND 21 hybrids are more docile than the parental O. nilotica. This becomes evident during sampling, sorting, selective harvesting and final harvesting. Fish are calm, not jumping and cooperate in routine farm activities. This results in reduced losses of fish throughout the production cycle.
Fast growth
The growth rate of All Male population of ND-21 Tilapia hybrids is comparable to pure line O. nilotica. To be specific, the ND-21 will grow slightly better in the lower temperature range (22-25 °C) and slightly lower in the high temperature range (29-31 °C). High fecundity
Parental stocks yield 300 fry per female per month, at initial phase of maturity, reaching ~500 fry per female per month at full maturity. For production of 1000 ton per year, it is recommended to use a flock of 1000 ND-2 females and 250 ND-1 males.
http://www.aquaculture.co.il/services/21strain.html
The ND 21 is a hybrid Tilapia cross between:
· Female O. nilotica ND-2 Tilapia family line
· Male O. aurea ND-1 Tilapia family line
The ND-2 Tilapia O. nilotica line, and the ND-1 Tilapia O. aurea line are a result of continuous selection and propagation within the specific families, originally obtained from nature many years ago. The original specimen are regarded as ecotypes.
The economic traits of the ND-21 Tilapia hybrids are:
All-Male population without hormonal treatment for sex reversal
The ND-21 Tilapia hybrid are all males. The proportion of Tilapia males in any spawning cycle is ~ 98%, without hormonal treatment, and provided APT operational instructions are adhered to. Actually, the progeny is 100% genetic males. The lower percent reflects penetration of foreign fish, assuming stern protection methods are used.
Docile behavior
ND 21 hybrids are more docile than the parental O. nilotica. This becomes evident during sampling, sorting, selective harvesting and final harvesting. Fish are calm, not jumping and cooperate in routine farm activities. This results in reduced losses of fish throughout the production cycle.
Fast growth
The growth rate of All Male population of ND-21 Tilapia hybrids is comparable to pure line O. nilotica. To be specific, the ND-21 will grow slightly better in the lower temperature range (22-25 °C) and slightly lower in the high temperature range (29-31 °C). High fecundity
Parental stocks yield 300 fry per female per month, at initial phase of maturity, reaching ~500 fry per female per month at full maturity. For production of 1000 ton per year, it is recommended to use a flock of 1000 ND-2 females and 250 ND-1 males.
http://www.aquaculture.co.il/services/21strain.html
Ok, this one was just too absurd to pass up! No wonder we are unable to win an argument; the opposition are truly half-wits.
"When a pair of freshwater fish species reproduce together, they create hybrids who are able to reproduce asexually. This ability should offer the hybrids an unstoppable evolutionary advantage...so why aren't we bowing down before our asexual fish hybrid masters? " http://io9.com/5797884/why-dont-asexual-fish-hybrids-rule-the-world
I guess fish turn into amoeba's somehow, split in half and grow new parts. Who knew....
"When a pair of freshwater fish species reproduce together, they create hybrids who are able to reproduce asexually. This ability should offer the hybrids an unstoppable evolutionary advantage...so why aren't we bowing down before our asexual fish hybrid masters? " http://io9.com/5797884/why-dont-asexual-fish-hybrids-rule-the-world
I guess fish turn into amoeba's somehow, split in half and grow new parts. Who knew....
