well, i have read in a few books about freshwater rays. an they all talk about the sudden deaths. an how they dont really know y but they belive that when captured an shipped an shipped place to place the ray gets stressed. sometimes to the point that it will kill the ray. an the ray can even live a cpl weeks and then just die. an the cause was massive stress from capture a week or 2 before. well i think you are right, i think it is over looked an it should be looked into more deeply. anything that can save rays should be looked into. but maybe all these sudden deaths are not all caused by stress but by Hyperplasa or a mix of the 2. great thread
Sudden Ray Death? ... Could it be Hyperplasia?
- Thread starter Miles
- Start date
joey020283;4759472; said:
http://stingraysource.com/StingraySource/dreamline/acute.htm
Thanks!
The original idea of the thread was the overall idea that they could be susceptible to hyperplasia for a number of different reasons.
Hyperplasia could effect rays for a number of reasons, I listed a dozen or so in the initial topic starter... but yeah it was primarily an example because I believe it's the most common and frequent scenario.
The topic leaned towards importation/shipment because I was using "teacup" rays and their poor shipment methods as an example of what could be a reoccuring theme leading to hyperplasia. You just seemed to want to argue about it, but all-in-all we agree. If you don't want to think poop matters, that's fine, I speak from experience. I wasn't trying to discredit you, you seem to want to be right, so you can be. Alot of what your citing as other possibilities is old info (acute stress, fasting for metabolic rates, ammonia poisoning, etc) while I was bringing some new information to the table that may of not been considered.
Who here had heard of Hyperplasia before this thread?
joey020283;4759490; said:
Pooping in the bag effects ammonia toxicity. I am not saying that pooping in the bag caused the fish to die of hyperplasia during transport. It obviously died of ammonia poisoning from the poop.
The point was that pooping in the bag can cause hyperplasia that, as you stated, does not work that fast and could possibly cause "Sudden Ray Death" weeks or even months later.
Miles;4759753; said:
Agreed
Based on the reason for this thread, and the manner in which you presented the dead ray in the bag, i figured you meant that the hyperplasia was the cause of the death for that ray, brought on by the poop.
Myself, i lean more towards acute stress being the cause of unexplained ray deaths more than i would hyperplasia. Any other reasons are generally easily identified. Those reasons could lead up to hyperplasia. I would feel confident in saying that hyperplasia is more common in wild caught rays, than captive bred. Based on your findings mentioned in importing wild rays.
I say this, because generally, a captive ray never has to go threw what a wild ray does before it gets to your tank.
If you don't want to think poop matters, that's fine,
I said it was not the bigger issue, given the circumstances you gave. The amount of ammonia produced by poop VS urine/breathing is great. 8 rays just sitting in that bag produce more ammonia than one ray taking a dump in that bag. That was my point.
I speak from experience.
So do i
I wasn't trying to discredit you, you seem to want to be right, so you can be.
Lets keep it friendly
Alot of what your citing as other possibilities is old info (acute stress, fasting for metabolic rates, ammonia poisoning, etc)
Your listing a side effect to ammonia. While it can be brought on by a few things, your examples are from ammonia poisoning. Rays dieing from ammonia poisoning is nothing new.
while I was bringing some new information to the table that may of not been considered.
Who here had heard of Hyperplasia before this thread?
So now we know another side effect to bad husbandry, and poor exporting...
Basically, from what i gather.... IF you import a wild caught ray, and it dies for no apparent reason... it MIGHT be from Hyperplasia. Is that a fair statement?
I said it was not the bigger issue, given the circumstances you gave. The amount of ammonia produced by poop VS urine/breathing is great. 8 rays just sitting in that bag produce more ammonia than one ray taking a dump in that bag. That was my point.
I speak from experience.
So do i
I wasn't trying to discredit you, you seem to want to be right, so you can be.
Lets keep it friendly
Alot of what your citing as other possibilities is old info (acute stress, fasting for metabolic rates, ammonia poisoning, etc)
Your listing a side effect to ammonia. While it can be brought on by a few things, your examples are from ammonia poisoning. Rays dieing from ammonia poisoning is nothing new.
while I was bringing some new information to the table that may of not been considered.
Who here had heard of Hyperplasia before this thread?
So now we know another side effect to bad husbandry, and poor exporting...
Basically, from what i gather.... IF you import a wild caught ray, and it dies for no apparent reason... it MIGHT be from Hyperplasia. Is that a fair statement?
