Switched from prime to safe- dead fish

[skjl47]

Hello; To make an avatar try this. Look at the upper right hand corner of the screen. You should see your user name (doc-fish). Hold the pointer on that and it should eventually cause a menu to drop down. Click on avatar and it should take you to avatar editor. Hope it works.

Sorry to the OP for the side track.

 

[RD.]

"I dont have a preference for any of the products mentioned, as stated i dont use a dechlorinator as i dont need one (nor do most people)."


Really, most people? Is that another one of your facts, or the world according to you? lol In North America alone, which is mostly what the membership of this forum is made up of - the level of disinfectant residuals found in local tap water varies greatly - from those who have almost 0 ppm chlorine leaving their tap, to those with numbers off the chart. Ditto to chloramine, the disinfectant of choice for many municipalities in larger urban areas - and the use of chloramine is constantly growing. It even states just that in the link that you just provided from Tetra. The OP of this discussion also has chloramine treated tap water, 3.7 ppm according to him.
Personally I think it's reckless to even suggest that "most" people don't need to use a dechlorinator. I have seen entire tanks full of fish completely void of life due to someone forgetting to add dechlorinator - members of this very forum.

And while I did find the Tetra link interesting, mostly what I took away from that was "our product is better than all the rest." That certainly came as a huge shock. lol

 

[pops]

I can only hope docs post not taken for fact, those that do with city treated water will have dead bio-filters and fish. Just bad internet info.

 

[RD.]

And just to prove what a misguided soul the good doctor is, AquaScience Research Group, the company that the Dr. keeps referring to as "Seachem's patent", is the company that created ClorAm-X, and has no association whatsoever with Seachem. The patent, is for ClorAm-X, another American based water conditioner, and one that I used for years before switching to Seachem Safe. Good solid research, scientist man. lol

Hopefully now i can post links? the link to seachem patent

https://www.google.co.uk/patents/EP0203741A2?dq=inassignee:"Aquascience+Research+Group,+Inc."&cl=en

The reason you know its Seachem is because their MSD is the only one that uses Bisulphate like this .

The name of the person who developed that product is John Farrell Kuhns, someone that I also conversed with in the past.

http://www.koicarekennel.com/pdf/ClorAm-XDataSheet.pdf



This is where I drop the mic, boom, over and out.

 

[CarpCharacin]

Most people do need a dechlorinator, but he is right when it comes to the ammonia getting released back into the water.

 

[RD.]

The following was posted by a Seachem rep years ago, where he/she explained the process when using Prime/Safe. Hopefully this will end this little debate about ammonia being released. If you can offer proof of otherwise, please do. If not, for the love of god and everything sacred and holy, please sit down and shut up.


"If the pH drops ammonia will not be released back into the water, and even if it did, it would be ionized ammonia (NH4+) which is totally non-toxic; only free ammonia NH3 is toxic. The only time ammonia removal products will
release ammonia is if the pH goes up, WAY UP, like around 12 to 14!
That only occurs when testing with Nessler or salicylate based
ammonia kits... they raise the pH to convert all ammonia to free
ammonia and test for free ammonia at pH 14. So actually if you are
using ammonia removal products and test for ammonia with these type
of tests you will get false readings for ammonia. You can get a
somewhat accurate result with a salycilate based kit if you take
your reading right away rather than waiting the full prescribed
time, but the trick is knowing when exactly to take that reading.
Our Ammonia Alert and MultiTest: Free & Total Ammonia both use a
gas exchange based sensor technology that is not affected by the
presence of ammonia removal products. Both give an accurate reading
for free ammonia without any interference.


Depending on how much chloramines you have you can use either Prime
or Safe. Prime is a liquid product for removing, chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. It actually removes chlorine by converting it to harmless chloride; the chloramine is removed by breaking the chlorine-ammonia bond, the chlorine is then reduced to chloride and the ammonia is then bound until it is utilized within the biological filtration. Unless you raise your pH to 12 it will not release the ammonia back. Safe is a dry version of Prime and is thus more concentrated. Economically it is the best way to go, however many
prefer using a liquid product for ease of use.


All of the ammonia removal products on the market work chemically essentially the same way they reduce chlorine to chloride and bind up ammonia. But, the chemical species used are all slightly different."

 

[Doc-Fish]

One thing that you are correct about, I
You entered this discussion stating some pretty far fetched things (pH changes, ammonia spikes) regarding Safe. If you have never studied these products and their reaction in an aquarium setting, or their safety with aquatic life, then what exactly is your point? That the company that brought this to the aquatic world didn't fully understand exactly how it all worked? LOL Seachem admitted that early on, when they described how Prime helped reduce nitrates. They OPENLY admitted that. As a scientist even you should understand that not everything can be explained by the scientific world.

I recall reading a paper titled the Squid Factor many years back, and in that paper the researchers spoke about how in squid meal (as well as fish meal) there are unknown growth factors present - that even today are not fully understood.

I have no issue if you have a hard on for Seachem, but IMHO your comments did nothing to assist the OP. Again, if you have peer reviewed publications specifically regarding these products, and your so called facts, then please share.

You point out all my numerous errors, (ok, so you aren't of Scottish blood lol) but you fail to answer my simple and direct question for proof of your initial comments. I am not arguing with anything else here. If you can back up your pH and NH3 comment you will certainly have my attention - but in my many years of actually using these products, in an aquarium application, I have never once seen anything of the sort. I'm guessing that no one else here on MFK has either.

 

[Doc-Fish]

I did a long reply but its gone, in a nutshell it boils down to reading what Seachem say in their patent. And please stop shooting yourself in the foot its getting painful to read.

You say with authority that ALL Ammonia removal products do the same thing, to be precise .

All of the ammonia removal products on the market work chemically essentially the same way they reduce chlorine to chloride and bind up ammonia. But, the chemical species used are all slightly different."

You are utterly confused and grabbing at straws with this, this shows your so called knowledge is a complete bluff. So how did i reach that conclusion?

Well top line you state

" All of the ammonia removal products on the market work chemically essentially the same way"

Then you go on to explain "they reduce chlorine to chloride and bind up ammonia."

Kindly explain how a Ammonia removal chemical converts NHx to Cl??

Again had you bothered to read the patent you would discover that in fact several products do it different way. I am sure you just confused yourself, i would stick to slightly easier terms if i was you.

I think maybe you meant that WATER CONDITIONERS and not " Ammonia removal"??

Anyway your wrong yet again, the type that convert to chloride are known as covalent bonding preparations. However particularly with the Glyoxal type preps the mechanism is entirely different, if your going to set yourself up as a water conditioner expert kindly go and actually read the technical documentation on them, at the very least make yourself aware of the different mechanisms. To blindly state they all do the same job is ridiculous when so many different patents describe in great detail other ways to do it.

Its true once upon a time with Thiosulphate Chlorine was turned to Chloride, as the following equation explains.

S2O3{2-} + 4 Cl2 + 5 H2O → 10 H{+} + 8 Cl{-} + 2 SO4{2-}

Are you aware that many of the products actually produce Hydrochloric acid? Again go read up then come back.

I am going to ignore you for a week or so, that should give you enough time to get some knowledge, i am sorry but at the moment it feels like i am having a battle of wits with a unarmed person.

Your argument is pitiful and i am embarrassed to be taking part in this nonsense your coming out with.

I tell you what, as i am knew and clearly you value your status here, i will just say i am totally wrong and the patents are wrong (even Seachems own) and you are utterly correct. there you go you win enjoy your vast knowledge.

 

[RD.]

If you stopped foaming at the mouth for a minute, you would first off notice that I didn't state anything of the sort, I posted in quotes " " what a Seachem rep posted several years ago in an attempt to explain the process to a layperson. Those weren't my words.

Ok, still with me so far?

Then go back and please note that the patent that you keep referring to, is a patent to a completely different product, made by a completely different company. HELLO - anybody home? Seachem has zero affiliation with AquaScience Research Group, better known as ARG. The patent that you have been posting about, referring to via the Tetra patent, and for some bizarre reason still babbling about, is a patent NOT held by Seachem.

Are you still with me, Doc?

The patent that you keep referring to is for ChlorAm-X, a water conditioner created by John Kuhns, from ARG. Allow me to direct you to a little history on ARG, and the inventor who holds the patent that you keep referring to. (as Seachem's?)

http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2015/06/16/aquarium-inventions/

My only apology in all of this is that I didn't catch your mistake on the patent holder and product inventor early on yesterday, but I was preoccupied at work and apparently don't have as much free time on my hands as others.

Just another classic example of why one has to be so careful when reading things on the internet. The information being supplied is always only as good as the person supplying that information.

 

[Fish Tank Travis]

Well this has escalated quickly. lol

I'm no expert on water conditioners or ammonia bonding agents, but I do know that most people in the U.S. need to use some sort of water conditioner when doing water changes. All municipal water systems have some sort of disinfectant and to my knowledge, they are all chlorine or chloramine (I could be wrong, but these two should cover about 99%). Those that are on well water might be able to skip the water conditioner but even some of them might still want to use it to detoxify heavy metals.

In short, I'm no expert, and don't really care to be. I just want to use the product and know it works. I really don't care how it's done. They could use microscopic elves to pry apart what needs to be pried apart and smash together what needs to be put together...it makes no difference to me. Lol. I use API water conditioner and it has worked well for me so far. I have considered looking into using Prime because it seems to be 90% of what people on here use.

I hope we can figure out what happened to the OP's tanks because it has me stumped and I'm really wanting to figure this out, both so that the OP knows and so that I know and can learn from it.