Chlorine and chloramine are much more toxic to fish than nitrifying bacteria so if there was a problem they would be affected first.
Tank crash?
- Thread starter Niki_up
- Start date
There's a chance that the new water wasn't thoroughly mixed the last time you did it. It would have been better to plug sink, add prime, and then fill it. But time for circulation is required to make sure that the chloramine from tap is removed.
Zero carb (I assume this is a mix of zeolite and carbon) doesn't go bad, it just becomes useless for what it is intended after 3-4 weeks. After that period of time, it's just surface area for bacteria growth.
The non-quarantined part is the most suspect to me.
Not using a Q.T. tank is the biggest mistake most aquarists make.
It doesn't matter if your LFS is trusted or not, because they get fish from many sources.
And shipping to the LFS alone can be stressful enough to cause the beginnings of an epidemic in your tank.
Think about how fast the Corona virus is spreading worldwide in humans these days
Were they bought as feeder type guppies? (not for feeding, but one of "those" tanks), these are the most suspect.
That said..
If you do a water change, and get low ammonia reading, using Chloraminated tap water, this is a normal result, Chloramines are "created" by your water provider by combining 4 or 5 parts chlorine, with 1 part concentrated ammonia, NH2 Cl.
When I lived in the U.S. and my tap water contained Chloramine, i would do 30-40% water changes every other day, and added just enough de-chlor in the form of Sodium Thiosulfate to neutralize the Chlorine amount of make up water, but because the Sodium Thio only neutralized the chlorine part, I would always get a trace reading of ammonia (@ 0.02 - 0.20)).
But within a very short time (5 to 10 minutes), the bio-media would eliminate that trace.
And although I usually clean media in old tank water, there is a contingent of aquarist's that believe rinsing media in chloraminated tap water forces old weak biofilm off, but allows the more robust bacteria to live and repopulate the media.
When we did tests of the pipes in the distribution system in my locality, (I was the house microbiologist) we found ammonia consuming bacteria throughout the entire distribution system, unaffected by normal chloramine levels.
Nothing. I have been doing same for decades, often with massive 80-90% water changes.
In an established system, with adequate bio-filtration, and parameters not creating any drastic fluctuations, 100% water changes are not an issue. See below......
No need to let sit in bucket, the reaction is pretty much instantaneous between Prime/Safe and chloramine. And the OP has chloramine treated tap water, as do I. A quick swish of the water is all that is required.
FYI - Seachem Ammonia Alert tests for free ammonia (NH3) , not total ammonia (NH4), so even if one has chloramines, that ammonia sensor that Seachem uses will not pick up any residual free ammonia from the tap water. I am on pretty much the exact same water as Niki (she lives north of me)
I concur with Duane, infected stock is most likely.
I have read many similar reports over the years, but none of those reports or studies, named the ammonia consuming strains of bacteria in their water distribution system, as being the same as the ones found in our aquariums. I can state with 100% certainty that @ 2 ppm, chloramine kills the bacteria in aquariums. Exactly how much would depend on contact time & residual strength of the chloramine. A thorough cleaning will often do MUCH more than simply "force old weak biofilm off".
Previously posted ......
I think that perhaps there is another flaw in the no-harm theory, and that is assuming that all "nitrifying bacteria" are all one in the same, as in the ones found in a water distribution line, are exactly the same as the ones found in home aquaria. But are they? In some of the reports regarding water distribution, it has been suggested that some of these bacteria found within a water distribution line have over time built up a resistance to chloramine. Other bacteria being discussed in most of these peer reviewed papers are not even the same spp that I would consider the primary concern in an aquarium setting, which would be those closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina. Not once did I see either of those two strains being mentioned in any of these papers. In fact Nitrospira when mentioned is often added on at the end, almost like an afterthought to all of the other so called "nitrifying bacteria" found within the water distribution system.
I would honestly love to do that, but the reality is for myself, I have no way in pulling that off, and IMO there's really no need. I am 100% certain as to what the end result would be, the only unknown would be how much bio-bacteria is killed. And that's where strength of the residual, the contact time, and the exact spp of bacteria would come into play. I can't imagine that anyone believes that oxidizing agents such as chlorine and/or chloramine are not harmful to the bacteria strains that keep our tanks balanced and safe for our fish. Obviously both kill fish, and the toxicity of both with a number of fish species has been well documented.
I think that perhaps there is another flaw in the no-harm theory, and that is assuming that all "nitrifying bacteria" are all one in the same, as in the ones found in a water distribution line, are exactly the same as the ones found in home aquaria. But are they? In some of the reports regarding water distribution, it has been suggested that some of these bacteria found within a water distribution line have over time built up a resistance to chloramine. Other bacteria being discussed in most of these peer reviewed papers are not even the same spp that I would consider the primary concern in an aquarium setting, which would be those closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina. Not once did I see either of those two strains being mentioned in any of these papers. In fact Nitrospira when mentioned is often added on at the end, almost like an afterthought to all of the other so called "nitrifying bacteria" found within the water distribution system.
I posted the following back in 2015, which received almost zero interest.
From the following paper .......
Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria - PMC
Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the α subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite oxidation in ...www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
"Traditionally, the bacteria responsible for the oxidation of ammonia and nitrite in aquaria were considered to be Nitrosomonas europaea and Nitrobacter winogradskyi or their close relatives, respectively (17, 18). However, there is some indication that both N. europaea and N. winogradskyi may not be predominant components of actively nitrifying freshwater aquaria (9). In seawater aquaria, however, N. europaea and close relatives do appear to comprise a significant proportion of the total eubacterial community, but N. winogradskyi was below detection limits (9)."
Today it seems that science is more focussed on Nitrospira-like bacteria. Thanks to Dr. Timothy Hovanec that years ago led a team of scientists that proved that Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter were to be a mistaken assumption for many years. Ammonia is converted to nitrite by bacteria of the Nitrosonomas marina-like strain and nitrite is converted to nitrate by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina. With several subsequent scientific studies by other scientists this data is now accepted and confirmed scientific fact. Nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria is believed to be mediated by bacteria closely related to Nitrospira moscoviensis and Nitrospira marina.
Paul C. Burrell, Carol M. Phalen, and Timothy A. Hovanec, “Identification of Bacteria Responsible for Ammonia Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria,” Applied and Environmental Microbiology, December 2001, pp. 5791-5800.
Hovanec, T. A., L. T. Taylor, A. Blakis and E. F. DeLong, “Nitrospira- Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria,” Applied and Environmental Microbiology, Vol. 64, No. 1, pp. 258-264.
IMHO we need to be careful when generalizing on forums such as these. I'm all for learning new things, including new science when it becomes available, but I think that it is foolish to think that one can simply extrapolate the findings in a paper that is viewing what takes place in a water distribution system, and the various "nitrifying bacteria" typically found in a water distribution system, where among other things tolerance levels and/or resistance can come into play, to what takes place in an established aquarium. I'm certainly not an expert on any of this, nor do I hold a qualifying PhD in this area. What I do have is a lot of common sense, and a lot of years of experience in this hobby. Chlorine & chloramine are toxins, and at elevated levels will kill fish, and the bacteria that support the lives of those fish. What the exact breaking point is in an established (or worse, unestablished) home aquaria I do not know, nor do I wish to experiment to find out. Well, at least not with my fish. I've already seen the first hand results in other folks tanks.
That's funny, squint. I have experimented with my tap water, and various water conditioners, enough over the years to understand what I can safely pull off, and what in my opinion is unsafe. I have also experimented enough with bacteria over the years, to understand that bacteria introduced into a system, doesn't mean that they will necessarily thrive under those new conditions, such as your tap to tank analogy.
Let me preface the following by stating up front that I am not a scientist, nor do I play one on TV. I do not know a lot about bacteria in general, and probably less about the various Nitrospira found on planet earth. But here’s what I do know, the men/women of science are also still attempting to figure out much of this.
There are currently 68 different species of Nitrospira bacteria. It was only very recently discovered that single microorganisms capable of complete ammonia to nitrate oxidation (comammox) were identified within the Nitrospira genus. These same bacteria are found in drinking water distribution lines, possibly even being the dominating species in many systems. See link below. But can we really compare everything that is taking place within a water distribution line, to what is taking place daily in a closed system, such as our aquariums, especially during tank maintenance? I don’t think so.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/612226v1.full
A re-post from a similar discussion that took place in the recent past here on MFK….
I think that this hobby can be a simple, or as complicated, as one wants to make it. I recall looking after a friends fish room while he was away in Singapore on a fish buying trip. He handed me 2 fricken pages of instructions & things that I needed to check each day! LOL But he had some incredible fish, probably 20K worth of Asian aro alone, along with thousands of dollars’ worth of black rays, and various other not so easy to find fish. His fish room was crazy over engineered, and super impressive by design, and he was smart enough to pull it all off & make it run like a Swiss watch. Myself, I could never build a fish room like that, I just don't have the know how or smarts in that area. I understand my limitations. Asking me to design and build a fish room like his would be like asking me to design & build a 3 story home. I can't even frame a simple garden shed! lol
I’m a simple guy too which is why I tend to apply the KISS (keep it simple stupid) method to fish keeping as much as possible. I also like to add a layer of redundancy where I can, more than 1 filter (in case filter fails), more than 1 heater (at lower wattage so as not to cook fish if/when a thermostat sticks ON) , everything plugged into a GFCI power bar or receptacle, or dedicated GFCI breaker - with a grounding probe in each tank. NOT that I would EVER suggest to others to do this with their bio-media, and their tanks, but ....... I clean my sponges, and finer filter media directly under the tap with 2 ppm chloramine. I understand that I am killing off a percentage of bio-bacteria while doing this, but I honestly don't care if the bacteria is almost completely wiped clean each time that I do this, because I have a large bag of very well established (15-20+ yrs established) sintered glass bio-media in each filter that I protect like the crown jewels. Each tank contains 3 large bags of well-seasoned bio-media.
Those bio-media bags get a light swish in a bucket filled with clean, dechlorinated with Seachem Safe, tap water. I also clean ALL filters at the same time, on the same day, in each tank. Again, this is what I do, with my filters, and my tanks, and my species of fish, because I know exactly what I am doing. I would never recommend this to others. Way too many variables involved to second guess someone else's set up from afar.
One of my large bio-media bags is enough to kick start a 100 gallon tank, instantly. Just add water & fish. I would NEVER clean that media anywhere near ANYTHING that could even remotely be considered toxic. I too have learned my fair share of lessons, the hard way.
Now if I had a 0.1 ppm chlorine residual coming out of my tap, I wouldn't be the least bit worried about dechlorinator, and would probably do exactly like Ted Judy, or at the very most use a weak sodium thiosulfate solution for water changes, and for cleaning media. I don't have plants to help remove free ammonia (NH3) which is also very toxic to fish, so I use a water conditioner that can render NH3 safe for fish (Seachem Safe), because with each water change with chloramine, once the chlorine/ammonia bond is split, free ammonia is left behind. Free ammonia is like second hand smoke, even a little causes harm, and can have a cumulative effect. I think that this hobby can be a simple, or as complicated, as one wants to make it. I recall looking after a friends fish room while he was away in Singapore on a fish buying trip. He handed me 2 s of instructions & things that I needed to check each day! LOL But he had some incredible fish, probably 20K
If someone feels that the chlorine and/or chloramine coming out of their taps won't cause any issues in their set ups, or their bio-media, then by all means go for it. Go
I also do massive water changes in the 80-90% range, and I have high pH, and at the higher pH values free ammonia becomes a lot more toxic to fish. Add higher temps to that equation and things become even more deadly, if one isn't careful. I hesitate to even mention how large of water changes I do, so as not to influence someone that keeps more sensitive species, or doesn't understand their own personal limitations, like I do. I have kept species of fish in the past where 30% water changes were pretty much the breaking point for their stress level, so that's as high as I went.
This is why is it so important to for each & every hobbyist to understand their limitations, with their set ups, and their fish, and then live by those limitations.
If someone feels that the chlorine and/or chloramine coming out of their taps won't cause any issues in their set ups, or their bio-media, then by all means go for it. Good luck.
Let me preface the following by stating up front that I am not a scientist, nor do I play one on TV. I do not know a lot about bacteria in general, and probably less about the various Nitrospira found on planet earth. But here’s what I do know, the men/women of science are also still attempting to figure out much of this.
There are currently 68 different species of Nitrospira bacteria. It was only very recently discovered that single microorganisms capable of complete ammonia to nitrate oxidation (comammox) were identified within the Nitrospira genus. These same bacteria are found in drinking water distribution lines, possibly even being the dominating species in many systems. See link below. But can we really compare everything that is taking place within a water distribution line, to what is taking place daily in a closed system, such as our aquariums, especially during tank maintenance? I don’t think so.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/612226v1.full
A re-post from a similar discussion that took place in the recent past here on MFK….
I think that this hobby can be a simple, or as complicated, as one wants to make it. I recall looking after a friends fish room while he was away in Singapore on a fish buying trip. He handed me 2 fricken pages of instructions & things that I needed to check each day! LOL But he had some incredible fish, probably 20K worth of Asian aro alone, along with thousands of dollars’ worth of black rays, and various other not so easy to find fish. His fish room was crazy over engineered, and super impressive by design, and he was smart enough to pull it all off & make it run like a Swiss watch. Myself, I could never build a fish room like that, I just don't have the know how or smarts in that area. I understand my limitations. Asking me to design and build a fish room like his would be like asking me to design & build a 3 story home. I can't even frame a simple garden shed! lol
I’m a simple guy too which is why I tend to apply the KISS (keep it simple stupid) method to fish keeping as much as possible. I also like to add a layer of redundancy where I can, more than 1 filter (in case filter fails), more than 1 heater (at lower wattage so as not to cook fish if/when a thermostat sticks ON) , everything plugged into a GFCI power bar or receptacle, or dedicated GFCI breaker - with a grounding probe in each tank. NOT that I would EVER suggest to others to do this with their bio-media, and their tanks, but ....... I clean my sponges, and finer filter media directly under the tap with 2 ppm chloramine. I understand that I am killing off a percentage of bio-bacteria while doing this, but I honestly don't care if the bacteria is almost completely wiped clean each time that I do this, because I have a large bag of very well established (15-20+ yrs established) sintered glass bio-media in each filter that I protect like the crown jewels. Each tank contains 3 large bags of well-seasoned bio-media.
Those bio-media bags get a light swish in a bucket filled with clean, dechlorinated with Seachem Safe, tap water. I also clean ALL filters at the same time, on the same day, in each tank. Again, this is what I do, with my filters, and my tanks, and my species of fish, because I know exactly what I am doing. I would never recommend this to others. Way too many variables involved to second guess someone else's set up from afar.
One of my large bio-media bags is enough to kick start a 100 gallon tank, instantly. Just add water & fish. I would NEVER clean that media anywhere near ANYTHING that could even remotely be considered toxic. I too have learned my fair share of lessons, the hard way.
Now if I had a 0.1 ppm chlorine residual coming out of my tap, I wouldn't be the least bit worried about dechlorinator, and would probably do exactly like Ted Judy, or at the very most use a weak sodium thiosulfate solution for water changes, and for cleaning media. I don't have plants to help remove free ammonia (NH3) which is also very toxic to fish, so I use a water conditioner that can render NH3 safe for fish (Seachem Safe), because with each water change with chloramine, once the chlorine/ammonia bond is split, free ammonia is left behind. Free ammonia is like second hand smoke, even a little causes harm, and can have a cumulative effect. I think that this hobby can be a simple, or as complicated, as one wants to make it. I recall looking after a friends fish room while he was away in Singapore on a fish buying trip. He handed me 2 s of instructions & things that I needed to check each day! LOL But he had some incredible fish, probably 20K
If someone feels that the chlorine and/or chloramine coming out of their taps won't cause any issues in their set ups, or their bio-media, then by all means go for it. Go
I also do massive water changes in the 80-90% range, and I have high pH, and at the higher pH values free ammonia becomes a lot more toxic to fish. Add higher temps to that equation and things become even more deadly, if one isn't careful. I hesitate to even mention how large of water changes I do, so as not to influence someone that keeps more sensitive species, or doesn't understand their own personal limitations, like I do. I have kept species of fish in the past where 30% water changes were pretty much the breaking point for their stress level, so that's as high as I went.
This is why is it so important to for each & every hobbyist to understand their limitations, with their set ups, and their fish, and then live by those limitations.
If someone feels that the chlorine and/or chloramine coming out of their taps won't cause any issues in their set ups, or their bio-media, then by all means go for it. Good luck.
This bit from your article talks about the distribution of comammox Nitrospira:
Clicking on reference 16 takes you to this article where you find this chart:
LOL
Clicking on reference 16 takes you to this article where you find this chart:
LOL
Why is it every time I read one of RD’s responses I realize just how much I don’t know about this hobby. Lol
Good read as always. Very informative.
Good read as always. Very informative.
This was quite eye opening, and something I will def be changing.
Wouldn’t have seen the error of my ways if it was not literally spelled out for me haha
thank you, I will not continue to do it this way.
I will have to clean my filter more regularly so it can be cleaned enough with the water drained from the tank itself.
I think there's been some good replies to your issue but we're pretty much second guessing. I could be completely off the mark, in fact thinking about it the quarantine issue which
duanes
picked up on is a good call too.Going back to the cleaning of mechanical filtration. I used to clean mine in tank water religiously but rinsing dirty sponges out in a bucket full of tank water gets you nowhere if you want your sponges cleaned properly. All you're doing is swishing them around in muddy water once you squeeze them and the crud starts coming free.
You can't beat a running tap of warm water to do the job right ime. But like
RD.
said earlier, each hobbyist has to know their systems intimately to know what they can successfully get away with. We can't take it for granted that what some hobbyist is doing down the road, with complete success, will work just as well for us. Too many variables.