Tank Cycle Phobia?

[Rocksor]

Pure ammonia actually has a basic or alkaline pH. So in theory, ammonia should raise the pH of an aquarium. However, virtually all processes in the aquarium that produce ammonia, as well as the breakdown of ammonia produce hydrogen cations. Since pH is the negative log of hydrogen cation concentration, increasing this lowers the pH, negating the mildly basic pH of ammonia. So while ammonia has a basic pH, the processes that create it in an aquarium produce enough hydrogen ions to overcome this and lower the pH.

If you are doing enough water changes in a stocked tank, and have a decent KH coming out of the tap, you won't see a drop in the ph due to biological processes.

Not sure why you want a higher TDS value using old water.

 

[Rocksor]

It seems along the same lines of a person who neglects water changes for a long time, then does a big one only to wind up with a bunch of dead fish from the shock of their new water being so chemically different than the soup they were in.

Oh so you're talking about osmotic shock, where the TDS value of the water has suddenly dropped to such a high degree that the minerals are leaving the fish way too fast. This is easily avoided by measuring the TDS of the old water versus new water. You can compensate temporarily with dissolved salt, lowering the TDS value closer to the tap water value by 50ppm a day.

 

[skjl47]

If you are doing enough water changes in a stocked tank, and have a decent KH coming out of the tap, you won't see a drop in the ph due to biological processes.

Not sure why you want a higher TDS value using old water.

Oh so you're talking about osmotic shock, where the TDS value of the water has suddenly dropped to such a high degree that the minerals are leaving the fish way too fast. This is easily avoided by measuring the TDS of the old water versus new water. You can compensate temporarily with dissolved salt, lowering the TDS value closer to the tap water value by 50ppm a day.

hello; Since the OP has declared he is now locked into a procedure for setting up a new tank and will defer considering other procedures for another future day, my continued comments are for my personal enlightenment.
Rocksor, as you seem to be I also have been questioning a couple of the indicated practices. I guess at this point in this thread any further discussion will be outside of the OP's initial purpose.

I gather the pH of the source water is slightly higher than the old tank water which is why I suggested doing a series of WC in the old tank for a few days prior to moving the fish. by series of WC I mean do say a 20 to 30 % WC each day for a couple of days. Then a couple of 40 to 50%, then a couple of 60 to 70 % until a big WC is not a shock. By the time the old tank is at 70+% the difference between it and the new tank water should be small if any.

I guess a reason I have been asking questions is the procedures the OP is using are different from what I have been using over the years. That they are different does not mean they are bad or wrong and new ideas can have big benefits. I guess an example is the idea of regular WC I somehow got around to several decades ago. Once I thought about regular WC the benefits became clear to me and I adopted the practice. Maybe the OP felt I was trying to talk him out of something, but I did not understand the benefits and hoped for more understanding. So far I do not see a reason to adopt using old tank water in a new setup to pick one particular item.

 

[Rocksor]

hello; Since the OP has declared he is now locked into a procedure for setting up a new tank and will defer considering other procedures for another future day, my continued comments are for my personal enlightenment.
Rocksor, as you seem to be I also have been questioning a couple of the indicated practices. I guess at this point in this thread any further discussion will be outside of the OP's initial purpose.

I gather the pH of the source water is slightly higher than the old tank water which is why I suggested doing a series of WC in the old tank for a few days prior to moving the fish. by series of WC I mean do say a 20 to 30 % WC each day for a couple of days. Then a couple of 40 to 50%, then a couple of 60 to 70 % until a big WC is not a shock. By the time the old tank is at 70+% the difference between it and the new tank water should be small if any.

I guess a reason I have been asking questions is the procedures the OP is using are different from what I have been using over the years. That they are different does not mean they are bad or wrong and new ideas can have big benefits. I guess an example is the idea of regular WC I somehow got around to several decades ago. Once I thought about regular WC the benefits became clear to me and I adopted the practice. Maybe the OP felt I was trying to talk him out of something, but I did not understand the benefits and hoped for more understanding. So far I do not see a reason to adopt using old tank water in a new setup to pick one particular item.

Like you, I came to the same conclusion about a decade ago with regards to new water versus old water. Understanding, TDS values, osmotic shock (not ph shock), and getting a simple less than $15 TDS meter made it so much easier in dealing with transferring fish, whether purchased or simply transferred from the old tank.

 

[LBDave]

Just an update. The tank is now reducing 1+ppm ammonia down to about .03 in 8 hours. So the bacteria is thriving. Still plan to move fish Saturday. Too busy during the week. If I add water from other tank it won't be a lot. I know some think that aspect is a mistake. I'm still pondering.
Ph has dropped to below 8. Still no fish or plants in tank.

As a side note I am thinking about what Jaws is going through moving fish and tanks from one area of the country to the other.
Would like to see him post on how he did this. A lot different from my long process. I wonder how he moved some BB media and kept it thriving?

 

[Rocksor]

Just an update. The tank is now reducing 1+ppm ammonia down to about .03 in 8 hours. So the bacteria is thriving. Still plan to move fish Saturday. Too busy during the week. If I add water from other tank it won't be a lot. I know some think that aspect is a mistake. I'm still pondering.
Ph has dropped to below 8. Still no fish or plants in tank.

As a side note I am thinking about what Jaws is going through moving fish and tanks from one area of the country to the other.
Would like to see him post on how he did this. A lot different from my long process. I wonder how he moved some BB media and kept it thriving?

Stuck it in the same container with his fish plus an airstone.

 

[LBDave]

Like you, I came to the same conclusion about a decade ago with regards to new water versus old water. Understanding, TDS values, osmotic shock (not ph shock), and getting a simple less than $15 TDS meter made it so much easier in dealing with transferring fish, whether purchased or simply transferred from the old tank.

In response I just did a water change in the established tank. All sump water and about 60% of tank. Ph went from 7.39 to 7.69 right after the change. This morning it is 7.27. I think if I were to try and equalize the ph somewhat with the water change method at the established tank it would be superfluous as this tank finds it's equilibrium within hours.
The new tank ph is decreasing. Most likely because I am not dosing the same amount of ammonia.
As far as dissolved solids, as I have indicated, if I do add some water from the existing tank it would not be much. Still considering if I will do this.

 

[LBDave]

Ok I moved the fish today and all is well. They are acclimating quickly and seem to be enjoying their new home.
Last Wed. Ammonia was holding almost 0 and I stopped dosing, but Nitrites were high. For the last few days prior I was dosing to about 1ppm and it went down to .03 in about 8 hours. No ammonia added after Wednesday. Just running the filter and waiting.
Friday night I drained the tank + sump and filled with fresh water treated with Amguard. I added some more bioball packs from the established tank along with a couple small rocks and a piece of driftwood. I added Stability. Ph was 7.99. Tested for Nitrites (just being careful!!) and 0.
I will keep monitoring/ testing the water.

So what I got out of this is a lot of people just move media from established tank and stock the new tank. No waiting for BB to grow, just go for it. Which surprised me a little. The second thing I got was adding any water from the established tank is just going to add unwanted chemicals. I know that the BB wouldn't be transferred but something in me said I should add water from the established tank. I disregarded that thought.
Today or tomorrow I will test ph with my meter and make sure both seneye devices are calibrated correctly.

Thanks for everybody's input.

 

[Supergeorge123]

Tetra safe start plus has always worked for me, seachem stability does not work that well at all in my experience. A lot of people say that the fritz refrigerated bacteria works well. I think that dr tims is the worst on the market based on how unnecessarily complicated it is just to get add on sales.

 

[LBDave]

Tetra safe start plus has always worked for me, seachem stability does not work that well at all in my experience. A lot of people say that the fritz refrigerated bacteria works well. I think that dr tims is the worst on the market based on how unnecessarily complicated it is just to get add on sales.

I've tried them all
The fluval has worked fairly well and the fritz is decent
Problem is until you get the cycle done putting this stuff in daily and with water changes gets expensive
Especially for larger tanks
Oh well