The Elephant in the Living Room

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if you think there isn't an illegal animal trade in this country your dead wrong, and most of the animals end up in deplorable conditions, unsafe and most normally dead long before their full lifespan. if you deny this, then you have no place arguing for keeping dangerous exotic animals

You are right. There is an illegal animal trade going on but guess what- IT'S ALREADY ILLEGAL! What do you think is going to happen by banning all ownership of exotics? It will only push the responsible keepers into the illegal trade.

I am all for reasonable (keyword here) permits to be established but outright bans are never the answer.
 
Statistically Even if there were the same amounts of both exotics and domestic animals being kept, dogs cats and horses would cause over 2x the number of fatalities.
Now how you know that? Or you just came up with just a guess? Let's be realistic that there are more domesticated animals than the exotic animals because we are exposed to the domesticated animals more than the exotic animals.
 
You are right. There is an illegal animal trade going on but guess what- IT'S ALREADY ILLEGAL! What do you think is going to happen by banning all ownership of exotics? It will only push the responsible keepers into the illegal trade.

I am all for reasonable (keyword here) permits to be established but outright bans are never the answer.

I'm arguing outright bans for non professionals. No one should own a big cat (tigers lions pumas jaguars) w/o a reason other then "I like them". Anyone who wants one should go through that. I wasnt arguing outright ban of all specie, only things easily deadly to humans for non professionals. Which I believe to be reasonable. I'm talking elephant, lion, tiger, exotic bear, things of that like. Not fish (unless its endangered), not small animals (again unless endangered).

Alsoi I was arguing my point against the other dude on here, who was saying we should be able to have anything we want and croaking about freedom, as I've said I'm all for professionals personally owning the big ones, and responsible, inspected and permitted normal people owning smaller ones that wouldn't be able to escape and kill someone.

My point of bringing up the illegal trade was to bring up how dangerous they can be un-professionally kept, not to make things more illegal so more things are thrust into that situation that is stupidity.

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Statistically Even if there were the same amounts of both exotics and domestic animals being kept, dogs cats and horses would cause over 2x the number of fatalities.

How old are you haha if you really think people owning chimps, lions, tigers, jaguars, and such wouldn't result in more deaths then the already massive amount of domestic animals everywhere and the deaths they cause then idk. I don't even know how to respond to that. Take it this way, if you interact with a tiger everyday for life most likely you will be attacked by a tiger. Now a tiger attack results in more deaths then any domestic animal. So therefore more deaths would happen. Its pretty basic common sense.

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Not even 20 minutes in and they featured a doctor from Ohio who claims to see more animal related deaths and injuries in the US than he does while doing humanitarian work in Africa. He claims this is due to our perception of animals as "pets" and Africa's perception of them as dangerous, wild animals. Roughly 3000 people in Africa are killed by hippos alone *per* year. I can't find a reliable statistic for exotic animal related deaths in the US but one site (bornfreeusa.org) lists 218 exotic animal related incidents in 2012, the majority of which weren't fatal. Wikipedia says an average of 3.5 fatalities occur per year in the US due to exotic animals. I'm not sure where I stand on the ownership issue (I have no interest in personally owning anything besides a few restricted fish species >.<) but it doesn't bode well for this documentary if they are presenting such biased "data" to support their argument.

In Ohio you can own pretty much anything without a permit which most likely resulted in a massive amount of injuries from all the unprepared owners, maybe not anymore but that's how it used to be

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I'm not going to get into this thread, just going to state my opinion and rebuke the big arguments against exotic ownership in the private sector.

No animal should be banned from being owned in the private sector. Limits should be placed as far as the number that may be taken from the wild, and individuals should be entered into a database that keeps track of who has what. That's it. No bans, no impossible hoops to jump through.

Now, to rebut the biggest arguments:

1. "They're wild animals, they belong in the wild!"
Exactly what "wild" are you referring to? The one prowled by poachers, ready to massacre a population to make money? The constantly shrinking fragments of natural habitat, continually being destroyed to make way for human "progress"? The wild that can only support so many animals, that number going down as habitat is cleared? The one where most animals never live to see adulthood? That wild?
The sad truth is that there isn't much wild left for these animals to belong in. Of that, even less is safe from human interference in the form of poaching. There is almost no untouched habitat left, and what little there is has its share of animals, it is full. It's at carrying capacity, so animals in captivity would simply get pushed out. This already happens to many species, and they resort to going through our garbage and asking for handouts. The wild is shrinking, and it is overflowing as is. Without established breeding populations in captivity, many species will simply cease to exist.

2. "Only qualified zoos should keep them!"
The answer is a combination of too little and too much. For starters, the number of zoos and the amount of space each of those zoos has is finite. It's rather limited, actually. Constantly, this argument is used with the presumption that there are enough zoos for these animals to be placed in. How much free space do you actually see at most zoos? How many empty cages? None. On top of that, anyone who has worked at a zoological facility will tell you that the resources they have are actually quite constrained. A lot of money goes into the initial construction of a zoo, but past that they are often left with somewhat little spare cash, as most money goes towards maintaining the animals they have. Most zoos keep animals in enclosures that haven't been renovated since their construction, zoos are not constantly expanding to make room for more animals, they don't have the budget for it. That's why it's such a big deal when it does actually happen. They don't have enough space or money to take in the occasional unwanted pet, what on Earth could lead anyone to believe that zoos and zoos alone have enough resources to sustain a genetically viable captive population of every species that is being driven to extinction? Moving on to the point of too much, zoos manage incredibly diverse collections of animals, so diverse that they can only keep a few of each species. Often only one or two of the larger species, not enough to sustain a healthy captive population. On top of that, zoos increasingly operate with a skeleton crew of generalist keepers, as opposed to a larger number of specialized keepers. What it all boils down to is that each individual species does not receive as much attention as they would otherwise, making successful breeding and advances in husbandry harder to accomplish. The lack of extra funds for enclosure upgrades only compounds this issue.
Enter the private sector. A massive number of specialized individuals, each keeping a smaller collection of often very similar animals. Each has time and funds to devote to their own species, and the flexibility to experiment with and improve husbandry standards. The massive scale of the private sector means that large, genetically diverse populations of captive animals can be maintained, far more than zoos could ever hope to accomplish.

3. "They could escape and hurt someone!"
Firstly, the same applies to zoos. The difference though is that zoo enclosures are often decades old, and not as suited to the animals as enclosures in the private sector. In addition to this, zoos invite thousands of people in every day, whereas in a private collection, the only people coming near the animals are either the owners or friends, who often are as qualified as the owner to deal with these animals, unlike the thousands of ignorant monkeys meandering about zoos who couldn't tell a King Cobra from a Ball Python even if it bit them on the face. Zoos have a far more extensive track record of animal escapes than private keepers do, and there is also the issue of nutjobs trying to get into a cage, who may pose a danger to the animals. That list is even longer in zoos and much shorter in the private arena.
Secondly, the bottom line is that exotic animals account for extremely few fatalities, and almost every one of those is the keeper or a friend/family member. An escaped exotic on a killing spree is less likely to kill you than your bathtub, lightning, or a terrorist attack. Being killed by medical malpractice is more likely than all of those combined.
Using some quick stats off of a Google search, exotic pets account for a grand total of 75 deaths between 1990 and 2011. That comes out to a bit over three and a half deaths each year. Medical malpractice kills 195,000 every year. I'll take my chances with the animals.

4. "The animals are kept in terrible conditions!"
Of course some are. The fact of the matter is that there will always be bad eggs. Some people should not have children, but how many laws do you see introduced to ban people from having kids? While those bad eggs constitute virtually 100% of the media coverage exotic animals receive, it is not the norm. The truth is that very few people buy animals because they want something "cool" to show off to their friend. Those that ask are usually turned down by the seller, and to be honest something like a tiger is not something you can buy on a whim, despite what the media and the animal rights activists will say. Go find me a tiger for sale that someone could buy because they felt like it. Go ahead. If someone is going to go through all the trouble of tracking down and purchasing such an animal (Which would likely take months, or even years) do you really think they are just going to slap it in a chain link kennel and ignore it? No, the vast majority of keepers love their animals, and will do whatever it takes to care for them. Most cases where animals are not cared for properly are cases of misinformation, not lack of interest in the animal's well being. Zoos are guilty of it as much as the private sector is, for that matter. Just ask any experienced monitor keeper.. Zoos are not omnipotent when it comes to animal care, as a matter of fact they are often behind. The people who run zoos are the same as private keepers, just with less flexibility. They are often stuck with husbandry practices several decades old because they're required to follow the approved guidelines, which take large amounts of time and money to modify, even when they clearly do not work. In addition, zoos have to worry about making money, meaning that oftentimes aesthetic appeal to visitors is given priority over the animal's well-being.

We need the private sector, and the animals need it even more.

I agree with most of what your saying, my argument is against the random person who wants to own one of the big, most potentially dangerous ones like the big cats, elephant and that's basically it. I'm all for the private sector (as long as they are well prepared and educated) to own the others, and even the big ones if they are professionals or at least have been trained by a professional.

Something could be setup akin to a hunting license for keeping the really big dangerous animals, where you need to pass a test at the end to show you'll properly manage it, yearly or even every 6 months. To keep the keepers on their toes.

Also about the death thing, I know not many cause actual DEATH to happen but many of them do cause injury in attack, and from the species I've listed the injury is usually maiming in nature, like a chimp biting your finger off or something of the like. Even a sliced tendon from the claw of a big cat could make your arm or leg next to useless. And usually these smaller attacks get passed off as domestic attacks (at least in my experience w/ people I know owning them) either because they don't want it to be taken away or because they don't want their friends to know the animal did it and they weren't in control.

Everyone's human. Everyone makes mistakes no matter how trained you are. Its just more training and more regulation would greatly increase the actual animals overall happiness and the happiness of the people who own them.

To clarify, all my posts point towards professional and trained people SHOULD be the ones owning the big dangerous exotics, and the rest of us can settle for things that aren't as crazy and demanding. That would make everyone in the exotic community happier.

As for the wild thing, of course you don't re introduce them to an area where they are going to interact with the developing modern world. You would of course be putting them in reservations where the enviroment is protected from such things. For animals not reaching adult hood of course they don't! Its the wild and death happens. Reservations for these animals are all over their natural habitat, and they aren't being developed haha, as you said though their numbers are being depleted by poachers. So they should be bolstered more from the captive populations here in the states.

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I'm arguing outright bans for non professionals. No one should own a big cat (tigers lions pumas jaguars) w/o a reason other then "I like them". Anyone who wants one should go through that. I wasnt arguing outright ban of all specie, only things easily deadly to humans for non professionals. Which I believe to be reasonable. I'm talking elephant, lion, tiger, exotic bear, things of that like. Not fish (unless its endangered), not small animals (again unless endangered).

Alsoi I was arguing my point against the other dude on here, who was saying we should be able to have anything we want and croaking about freedom, as I've said I'm all for professionals personally owning the big ones, and responsible, inspected and permitted normal people owning smaller ones that wouldn't be able to escape and kill someone.

My point of bringing up the illegal trade was to bring up how dangerous they can be un-professionally kept, not to make things more illegal so more things are thrust into that situation that is stupidity.

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By professional do you mean zoos exclusively? What about a professional breeder?

What about things that are venomous? I keep venomous snakes and am "not professional". Should that be banned too because it is easily deadly to humans. Even though I am annually inspected by the FWC, had to have 1000 hours of hands on training, need to have all of my enclosures double screened and locked and labeled.

In FL at least, the permitting system used to be equally good for big cats but they have recently made it so that even those with the resources available to care for them cannot obtain a permit which is terrible.
 
By professional do you mean zoos exclusively? What about a professional breeder?

What about things that are venomous? I keep venomous snakes and am "not professional". Should that be banned too because it is easily deadly to humans. Even though I am annually inspected by the FWC, had to have 1000 hours of hands on training, need to have all of my enclosures double screened and locked and labeled.

In FL at least, the permitting system used to be equally good for big cats but they have recently made it so that even those with the resources available to care for them cannot obtain a permit which is terrible.

We in PA have no over sight and our incident rate in similar to FL if im not mistakin.

Heck personally I own a caiman and have no permit.

In PA our furry animal permit process is HORRIBLE!!! It is one of the biggest reasons im against permits. Well that and "those that sacrifice liberty for a small amount of security, deserve neither and will lose both".

Conservation through commercialization!
 
We in PA have no over sight and our incident rate in similar to FL if im not mistakin.

Heck personally I own a caiman and have no permit.

In PA our furry animal permit process is HORRIBLE!!! It is one of the biggest reasons im against permits. Well that and "those that sacrifice liberty for a small amount of security, deserve neither and will lose both".

Conservation through commercialization!

I'm sorry but that's gotta be one of the most retarded things I've ever heard. Requiring a permit and annual inspection for owning a tiger is sacrificing liberty?!?!

Yeah I'm sure that's what the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the constitution.


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I'm sorry but that's gotta be one of the most retarded things I've ever heard. Requiring a permit and annual inspection for owning a tiger is sacrificing liberty?!?!

Yeah I'm sure that's what the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the constitution.


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You need to keep in mind that there is a never ending push towards banning exotics all together. It is giving up freedom when the gov't does not know where to stop. Take a look at the big constrictors, they are being regulated to complete bans but it is happening slowly. Same thing with big mammals or venomous.

Have you ever applied for a special species permit? Don't judge until you have tried.
 
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