the Great Jack Controvery

[Calihawk]

YUP, controversial indeed...I was just expletively Insulted by a member and even Threatened.

This is all for wether or not the different variants are indeed its own groupings or that they are all 1 fish. I give up the debate...for none of us truly know this. Just like the Carpintis thread, the arguments will cease to end.

 

[Pomatomus]

Even after reading all of the posts I'm not quite understanding the controversy. I always thought that the EB gene was very recessive and, when expressed, is coupled with other deformities, which can happen in any animal when you breed 2 like-gened individuals. Purebreed dogs come to mind.

From the OP I got the impression that these should have some sort of designation other than the color, which I disagree with. I didn't know that anyone even considered them a hybrid between cichlids. Also, just because something isn't seen in the wild doesn't mean the gene doesn't exist. Everyone knows about the normal ocellaris clownfish (nemo). There is a black color variant (black with white stripes) in the hobby that is found in the wild, but there is also a "Wyoming white" color morph that is not.

All goldfish are Carassius auratus. They are not hybrids and have all sorts of colors, shapes, and deformities. Most of which are not found in the wild type.

 

[Calihawk]

Hehe, not its own Genus and Species name but just proof on the different variants...

Are they different variants that can produce same results long term, or are they just simple color morphs??? This is the controversy...More so with the "Powder Blue" Jacks. Some people say that the Powder Blues are just colored different due to food, environment, etc. even though they are all kept in the same environment as the other Jacks. I would like to hear from someone who has bred a male Powder with a female Powder and see if ALL the frys are Powder. If not then it is true that perhaps the Powder is just a variant due to environment and not because of genetics. Either way, this just reminds me of the Carpintis argument and Ive given this thread a rest. Thanx to all that replied Good and Bad...but all in all, BEHAVE YOURSELVES.

 

[cacichlids]

But why do you keep comparing JD to Carpintis? It's like apples and oranges.

Carpintis is an entirely different species from Cyanoguttatus and the Carpintis variants such as "Vontehillo" or "Escondido" refer to a collection point, but are the same species. Their appearance differs a little depending on their location just like Salvini, Festae, Dovii, Beani and many other cichlids that will have certain patterns or colors depending on where you caught them. These differences are produced by the environment... not sure but it must be things like water hardness, temperature, pH, diet, etc. Amphilophus sp. 'Red Isletas' have a Red Head in the wild but it's been reported that they lose the Red in captivity because they don't have access to the food that gives em this coloration.

I don't think EBJD can produce "long term results" because they become weaker the more you breed em to each other... If you breed an EBJD to another EBJD you will reach a point where the eggs will be infertile or the wrigglers will never develop or whatever. So you will never have a group of EBJD that continuously breed to each other and produce 100% EBJD fry that survive, breed again and so on. I think you will always at some point have to breed em back to regular JDs to keep them going.

 

[Pomatomus]

Ya the "Vontehillo" controversy was whether or not the location existed if I remember correctly.

A powder blue mated with a powder blue would produce 100% powder blue offspring if the allele is homozygous recessive. Just like an EBJD x EBJD. Here's a link that will explain how it works: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square

 

[peathenster]

A powder blue mated with a powder blue would produce 100% powder blue offspring if the allele is homozygous recessive. Just like an EBJD x EBJD.

In theory you are right. In reality 100% of the fry will be DEAD.

I'm surprised this kind of question was even asked in the first place (not by you).

 

[alexanian]

This was an intresting read, but man there is so many reciprocal claims in this hobby that'll make ur head spin
I read about EBJD (can't remember where ) that if u breed EBJD to a EBJD you will not get EBJD offspring, but a regular JD carrying the recesive gene. To get an all EBJD offspring u need to breed this offspring with the original male EBJD ( the father ) if I remeber it correctly.

 

[Pomatomus]

In theory you are right. In reality 100% of the fry will be DEAD.

I'm surprised this kind of question was even asked in the first place (not by you).

Oh yeah, I'm not talking about the fate of the fry, just the genotype.

@ Alex: That's weird. Are you sure you don't mean breeding EBJD x JD = JD with the recessive trait? What you said seems to defy genetics, but I suppose there could be other alleles at work...There are known to be genes that suppress the expression of other genes.

 

[alexanian]

@ Alex: That's weird. Are you sure you don't mean breeding EBJD x JD = JD with the recessive trait? What you said seems to defy genetics, but I suppose there could be other alleles at work...There are known to be genes that suppress the expression of other genes.

Yes I am pretty sure cuz the article was about how hard it is to breed EBJD because of this fact. So i'm pretty sure it said EBJD x EBJD = JD carrying the recessive gene. Now if u breed this offspring with any other JD u could get some EBJD's down the line, but to get a bach of all EBJD u need to breed them back with the original EBJD i.e. the father. I don't know if it's true since I never kept JD nor EBJD, and I would surely like to hear if any of the members here spawned 2 EBJD's and what did they get. Or maybe if someone has a pair can try to breed them this way and see if he'll get all EBJD offspring. It will take some time I know, but maybe in a year or so we can get a confirmation about this from a MFK member.

 

[dogofwar]

I'm still confused.

Who threatened you...and about what?

Is anyone arguing that EBJDs are a different species...or (naturally occurring) varient of R. octofasciata?

Matt

YUP, controversial indeed...I was just expletively Insulted by a member and even Threatened.

This is all for wether or not the different variants are indeed its own groupings or that they are all 1 fish. I give up the debate...for none of us truly know this. Just like the Carpintis thread, the arguments will cease to end.