the Great Jack Controvery

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Yes - I have collected in South America...and, in the case of some cichlids like Gymnogeos and Chanchitos ("convicts" and other Cryptoheros), the variability in populations and among populations of the same species is incredible.

What are you asking me to prove?

That the mutation(s) that makes EBJDs different than wild-type JDs are recessive?

That there is variability among wild populations of JDs?

That EBJDs aren't found in the wild?

Again, I'm not following you...

Matt

oriqua said:
what is your proof for your position...like i said have you collected in the wild and can you prove your theories.
Click to expand...
 
let me restate what your trying to say?

Are you saying ebjd where created from line breeding within the hobby and there is no chance of either blue gene dempsey or
Ebjd existing in the wild? is that correct
 
what Im trying to state and its opinon is how do we know that blue gene exist in the wild right and because of the strongest survive in the wild do to predators and so forth how can we prove that blue gene pairs are existing as we speak and collectors not knowing or not tested them . Its all speculation.
 
I agree inbreeding these fish can cause the deformities.

but I find them beautiful fish

As far as I know, they are all man-made variations of Rocio octofasciata....line bred to accentuate the mutations and deformities that some find aesthetically appealing.

Matt
 
I believe Matt is saying, like I was saying, that it seems the evidence points toward this being a line bred genetic mutation, BUT some argue there is hybridization involved. The DNA test I read about was inconclusive IMO. If it's a natural genetic mutation that just happened to pop up in a tank, then yes, theoretically it could occur in the wild. Has there ever been a single report of a EBJD in the wild? No, not to my knowledge. The only way to know for sure is if you bred them originally, or if you did extensive DNA testing.
And you don't have to take this personally because you like EBJDs. I don't care for them either, but I'm sure there's lots of people out there that don't care for the fish I like.
 
I agree people like what they like but I felt alot of people put them down and criticize the beatiful specimen in my opinion.
 
Yes - just as finding a spontaneously occurring koi angel in the wild...or purple and green veil tailed betta...or oranda goldfish in the wild isn't possible.

They're an aquarium strain.

Matt

oriqua said:
let me restate what your trying to say?

Are you saying ebjd where created from line breeding within the hobby and there is no chance of either blue gene dempsey or
Ebjd existing in the wild? is that correct
Click to expand...
 
Well I can say mother nature throws some surprises at us...BIG UPS to UMBEEKING..

GORILLA UMBEES new to the hobby great find Chris.
 
Good info:

DNA tests were commissioned by Jeff Rapps in August of 2005 in an attempt to verify the authenticity of Hector Luzardos claim. The results of the test furnished by Dr. Prosanta Chakrabarty proportedly showed that Electric Blue Jack Dempsey are indeed a color morph of octofasciata.

Many people in the cichlid community were doubtful over these results, and proclaimed the tests were run incorrectly and only showed mitachondrial DNA. Further investigation into this found that Dr. Prosanta Chakrabarty did indeed run nuclear DNA tests, and simply neglected to share them with people.

In an attempt to verify the results of these tests, members of the bluejax forum (http://bluejax.14.forumer.com/index.php) came together to help me fit the bill for some DNA analysis. Our DNA tests proved the same, that no other DNA was found in the gene region we targeted. Here is a copy of that test:

EBF8 = electric blue female
EBM8 = electric blue male
JDF8 = jack dempsey female
JDM8 = jack dempsey male


SEQ EBF8-20-07-10-41 AM: 504 bp;
Composition 109 A; 109 C; 133 G; 153 T; 0 OTHER
Percentage: 21.6% A; 21.6% C; 26.4% G; 30.4% T; 0.0%OTHER
Molecular Weight (kDa): ssDNA: 155.89 dsDNA: 310.71
ORIGIN
1 TTTTACACTG GACTGGCTTT TCTGTTTTAA AATGTACTTT AATTGTGTTT AATGGCAAAA
61 TTTACACACA GTAAGGCATG TGAAGACTGT GATTCGTTAG ATTATGTGAG TTGCAGCACC
121 GGATGGCTCA TTTTTACGGC TAAGTAAGGC GTAGTAGAGC AGCTCCGGTC AATGAGTTTG
181 GGTTAGCGGG TAGCTAGCAG CAAGCAGCAG GCCGTGCATG TGTTCAGCTA GCCGCCACAG
241 AAGCGAGAAA AGGAGACCTT AAGTTCACTT TCAGGGCCGG AGGTTCAGAT TTTTTCATTG
301 TTGCTTATAT AGTTGTTTTG TAAGTTCCGC TATATGTCCA TGGTGCTGTT ATATCCATCT
361 GCTCAGCGCC TGTGAGCTAG CGCGGTGAGC TCTGGTGCTG CCCCTTTAGG TTAGCGCCGC
421 TCGCCCCGCA GCTCCTGGCT TTCAGTGAAG GATGGACGTT AAAGATGCTC CGCTGCCCTT
481 CAGCGGTTCT AACCCACATG TCTT

SEQ EBM8-20-07-9-44 AM: 503 bp;
Composition 109 A; 109 C; 133 G; 152 T; 0 OTHER
Percentage: 21.7% A; 21.7% C; 26.4% G; 30.2% T; 0.0%OTHER
Molecular Weight (kDa): ssDNA: 155.58 dsDNA: 310.09
ORIGIN
1 TTTTACACTG GACTGGCTTT TCTGTTTTAA AATGTACTTT AATTGTGTTT AATGGCAAAA
61 TTTACACACA GTAAGGCATG TGAAGACTGT GATTCGTTAG ATTATGTGAG TTGCAGCACC
121 GGATGGCTCA TTTTTACGGC TAAGTAAGGC GTAGTAGAGC AGCTCCGGTC AATGAGTTTG
181 GGTTAGCGGG TAGCTAGCAG CAAGCAGCAG GCCGTGCATG TGTTCAGCTA GCCGCCACAG
241 AAGCGAGAAA AGGAGACCTT AAGTTCACTT TCAGGGCCGG AGGTTCAGAT TTTTTCATTG
301 TTGCTTATAT AGTTGTTTTG TAAGTTCCGC TATATGTCCA TGGTGCTGTT ATATCCATCT
361 GCTCAGCGCC TGTGAGCTAG CGCGGTGAGC TCTGGTGCTG CCCCTTTAGG TTAGCGCCGC
421 TCGCCCCGCA GCTCCTGGCT TTCAGTGAAG GATGGACGTT AAAGATGCTC CGCTGCCCTT
481 CAGCGGTTCT AACCCACATG TCT

SEQ JDF8-20-07-8-47 AM: 500 bp;
Composition 109 A; 108 C; 133 G; 150 T; 0 OTHER
Percentage: 21.8% A; 21.6% C; 26.6% G; 30.0% T; 0.0%OTHER
Molecular Weight (kDa): ssDNA: 154.69 dsDNA: 308.24
ORIGIN
1 TTTTACACTG GACTGGCTTT TCTGTTTTAA AATGTACTTT AATTGTGTTT AATGGCAAAA
61 TTTACACACA GTAAGGCATG TGAAGACTGT GATTCGTTAG ATTATGTGAG TTGCAGCACC
121 GGATGGCTCA TTTTTACGGC TAAGTAAGGC GTAGTAGAGC AGCTCCGGTC AATGAGTTTG
181 GGTTAGCGGG TAGCTAGCAG CAAGCAGCAG GCCGTGCATG TGTTCAGCTA GCCGCCACAG
241 AAGCGAGAAA AGGAGACCTT AAGTTCACTT TCAGGGCCGG AGGTTCAGAT TTTTTCATTG
301 TTGCTTATAT AGTTGTTTTG TAAGTTCCGC TATATGTCCA TGGTGCTGTT ATATCCATCT
361 GCTCAGCGCC TGTGAGCTAG CGCGGTGAGC TCTGGTGCTG CCCCTTTAGG TTAGCGCCGC
421 TCGCCCCGCA GCTCCTGGCT TTCAGTGAAG GATGGACGTT AAAGATGCTC CGCTGCCCTT
481 CAGCGGTTCT AACCCACATG

SEQ JDM8-20-07-7-41 AM: 489 bp;
Composition 105 A; 104 C; 131 G; 148 T; 1 OTHER
Percentage: 21.5% A; 21.3% C; 26.8% G; 30.3% T; 0.2%OTHER
Molecular Weight (kDa): ssDNA: 151.32 dsDNA: 301.46
ORIGIN
1 TTTTACACTG GACTGGCTTT TCTGTTTTAA AATGTACTTT AATTGTGTTT AATGGCAAAA
61 TTTACACACA GTAAGGCATG TGAAGACTGT GATTCGTTAG ATTATGTGAS TTGCAGCACC
121 GGATGGCTCA TTTTTACGGC TAAGTAAGGC GTAGTAGAGC AGCTCCGGTC AATGAGTTTG
181 GGTTAGCGGG TAGCTAGCAG CAAGCAGCAG GCCGTGCATG TGTTCAGCTA GCCGCCACAG
241 AAGCGAGAAA AGGAGACCTT AAGTTCACTT TCAGGGCCGG AGGTTCAGAT TTTTTCATTG
301 TTGCTTATAT AGTTGTTTTG TAAGTTCCGC TATATGTCCA TGGTGCTGTT ATATCCATCT
361 GCTCAGCGCC TGTGAGCTAG CGCGGTGAGC TCTGGTGCTG CCCCTTTAGG TTAGCGCCGC
421 TCGCCCCGCA GCTCCTGGCT TTCAGTGAAG GATGGACGTT AAAGATGCTC CGCTGCCCTT
481 CAGCGGTTC

JDM-8-20-07 TTTTACACTGGACTGGCTTTTCTGTTTTAAAATGTACTTTAATTGTGTTTAATGGCAAAA
JDF8-20-07 TTTTACACTGGACTGGCTTTTCTGTTTTAAAATGTACTTTAATTGTGTTTAATGGCAAAA
EBM8-20-07 TTTTACACTGGACTGGCTTTTCTGTTTTAAAATGTACTTTAATTGTGTTTAATGGCAAAA
EBF8-20-07 TTTTACACTGGACTGGCTTTTCTGTTTTAAAATGTACTTTAATTGTGTTTAATGGCAAAA
DQ119255 TTTTACACTGGACTGGCTTTTCTGTTTTAAAATGTACTTTAATTGTGTTTAATGGCAAAA
DQ836808 ----------------CTTTTCTGTTTTAAAATGTACTTTAATTGTGTTTAATGGCAAAA
********************************************

JDM-8-20-07 TTTACACACAGTAAGGCATGTGAAGACTGTGATTCGTTAGATTATGTGASTTGCAGCACC
JDF8-20-07 TTTACACACAGTAAGGCATGTGAAGACTGTGATTCGTTAGATTATGTGAGTTGCAGCACC
EBM8-20-07 TTTACACACAGTAAGGCATGTGAAGACTGTGATTCGTTAGATTATGTGAGTTGCAGCACC
EBF8-20-07 TTTACACACAGTAAGGCATGTGAAGACTGTGATTCGTTAGATTATGTGAGTTGCAGCACC
DQ119255 TTTACACACAGTAAGGCATGTGAAGACTGTGATTCGTTAGATTATGTGAGTTGCAGCACC
DQ836808 TTTACACACAGTAAGGCATGTGAAGACTGTGATTCGTTAGATTATGTGACTTGCAGCACC
************************************************* **********

JDM-8-20-07 GGATGGCTCATTTTTACGGCTAAGTAAGGCGTAGTAGAGCAGCTCCGGTCAATGAGTTTG
JDF8-20-07 GGATGGCTCATTTTTACGGCTAAGTAAGGCGTAGTAGAGCAGCTCCGGTCAATGAGTTTG
EBM8-20-07 GGATGGCTCATTTTTACGGCTAAGTAAGGCGTAGTAGAGCAGCTCCGGTCAATGAGTTTG
EBF8-20-07 GGATGGCTCATTTTTACGGCTAAGTAAGGCGTAGTAGAGCAGCTCCGGTCAATGAGTTTG
DQ119255 GGATGGCTCATTTTTACGGCTAAGTAAGGCGTAGTAGAGCAGCTCCGGTCAATGAGTTTG
DQ836808 GGATGGCTCATTTTTACGGCTAAGTAAGGCGTAGTAGAGCAGCTCCGGTCAATGAGTTTG
************************************************************

JDM-8-20-07 GGTTAGCGGGTAGCTAGCAGCAAGCAGCAGGCCGTGCATGTGTTCAGCTAGCCGCCACAG
JDF8-20-07 GGTTAGCGGGTAGCTAGCAGCAAGCAGCAGGCCGTGCATGTGTTCAGCTAGCCGCCACAG
EBM8-20-07 GGTTAGCGGGTAGCTAGCAGCAAGCAGCAGGCCGTGCATGTGTTCAGCTAGCCGCCACAG
EBF8-20-07 GGTTAGCGGGTAGCTAGCAGCAAGCAGCAGGCCGTGCATGTGTTCAGCTAGCCGCCACAG
DQ119255 GGTTAGCGGGTAGCTAGCAGCAAGCAGCAGGCCGTGCATGTGTTCAGCTAGCCGCCACAG
DQ836808 GGTTAGCGGGTAGCTAGCAGCAAGCAGCAGGCCGTGCATGTGTTCAGCTAGCCGCCACAG
************************************************************

JDM-8-20-07 AAGCGAGAAAAGGAGACCTTAAGTTCACTTTCAGGGCCGGAGGTTCAGATTTTTTCATTG
JDF8-20-07 AAGCGAGAAAAGGAGACCTTAAGTTCACTTTCAGGGCCGGAGGTTCAGATTTTTTCATTG
EBM8-20-07 AAGCGAGAAAAGGAGACCTTAAGTTCACTTTCAGGGCCGGAGGTTCAGATTTTTTCATTG
EBF8-20-07 AAGCGAGAAAAGGAGACCTTAAGTTCACTTTCAGGGCCGGAGGTTCAGATTTTTTCATTG
DQ119255 AAGCGAGAAAAGGAGACCTTAAGTTCACTTTCAGGGCCGGAGGTTCAGATTTTTTCATTG
DQ836808 AAGCGAGAAAAGGAGACCTTAAGTTCACTTTCAGGGCCGGAGGTTCAGATTTTTTCATTG
************************************************************

JDM-8-20-07 TTGCTTATATAGTTGTTTTGTAAGTTCCGCTATATGTCCATGGTGCTGTTATATCCATCT
JDF8-20-07 TTGCTTATATAGTTGTTTTGTAAGTTCCGCTATATGTCCATGGTGCTGTTATATCCATCT
EBM8-20-07 TTGCTTATATAGTTGTTTTGTAAGTTCCGCTATATGTCCATGGTGCTGTTATATCCATCT
EBF8-20-07 TTGCTTATATAGTTGTTTTGTAAGTTCCGCTATATGTCCATGGTGCTGTTATATCCATCT
DQ119255 TTGCTTATATAGTTGTTTTGTAAGTTCCGCTATATGTCCATGGTGCTGTTATATCCATCT
DQ836808 TTGCTTATATAGTTGTTTTGTAAGTTCCGCTATATGTCCATGGTGCTGTTATATCCATCT
************************************************************

JDM-8-20-07 GCTCAGCGCCTGTGAGCTAGCGCGGTGAGCTCTGGTGCTGCCCCTTTAGGTTAGCGCCGC
JDF8-20-07 GCTCAGCGCCTGTGAGCTAGCGCGGTGAGCTCTGGTGCTGCCCCTTTAGGTTAGCGCCGC
EBM8-20-07 GCTCAGCGCCTGTGAGCTAGCGCGGTGAGCTCTGGTGCTGCCCCTTTAGGTTAGCGCCGC
EBF8-20-07 GCTCAGCGCCTGTGAGCTAGCGCGGTGAGCTCTGGTGCTGCCCCTTTAGGTTAGCGCCGC
DQ119255 GCTCAGCGCCTGTGAGCTAGCGCGGTGAGCTCTGGTGCTGCCCCTTTAGGTTAGCGCCGC
DQ836808 GCTCAGCGCCTGTGAGCTAGCGCGGTGAGCTCTGGTGCTGCCCCTTTAGGTTAGCGCCGC
************************************************************

JDM-8-20-07 TCGCCCCGCAGCTCCTGGCTTTCAGTGAAGGATGGACGTTAAAGATGCTCCGCTGCCCTT
JDF8-20-07 TCGCCCCGCAGCTCCTGGCTTTCAGTGAAGGATGGACGTTAAAGATGCTCCGCTGCCCTT
EBM8-20-07 TCGCCCCGCAGCTCCTGGCTTTCAGTGAAGGATGGACGTTAAAGATGCTCCGCTGCCCTT
EBF8-20-07 TCGCCCCGCAGCTCCTGGCTTTCAGTGAAGGATGGACGTTAAAGATGCTCCGCTGCCCTT
DQ119255 TCGCCCCGCAGCTCCTGGCTTTCAGTGAAGGATGGACGTTAAAGATGCTCCGCTGCCCTT
DQ836808 TCGCCCCGCAGCTCCTGGCTTTCAGTGAAGGATGGACGTTAAAGATGGTCCGCTGCCCTT
*********************************************** ************

JDM-8-20-07 CAGCGGTTC---------------------------------------------------
JDF8-20-07 CAGCGGTTCTAACCCACATG----------------------------------------
EBM8-20-07 CAGCGGTTCTAACCCACATGTCT-------------------------------------
EBF8-20-07 CAGCGGTTCTAACCCACATGTCTT------------------------------------
DQ119255 CAGCGGTTCTAACCCACATGTCTTTATTTCGCCGTGCAGAGACAAAGGCCATGTTCAGTA
DQ836808 CGGCGGTTCTAACCCACATGTCTTTA----------------------------------
* *******

JDM-8-20-07 ---
JDF8-20-07 ---
EBM8-20-07 ---
EBF8-20-07 ---
DQ119255 CCA
DQ836808 ---
Click to expand...
 
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