TSN in 180?

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This idea of fish not reaching their maximum 'wild' size in aquaria is not so much to do with so-called physical 'stunting' rather it is an unintentional side effect of feeding them an artificial diet. As an avid Plec fan I got myself quite a few exotic L nos early on only to be dismayed when they hardly grew more than an inch every year then all started to die off after five or six....from what I've read this is due to us not being able to captive breed these wild fish so the diet we give them be they herbivorous or carniverous will never provide the exact nutrients that the fish will get through its wild diet. to me these large carniverous fish are the same if you feed them on whole live fish then they will achieve their natural size potential no matter what size tank you try to stuff them in. But if you feed them pellets and dead fish meat like most of us do they will never get to that full potential...just too much missing from the diet.....just my 2p worth. Personally I'm about to attempt a TSN in a 7ft 255gal with the 'get out' clause that my local aquarium will take it should it get over the 30" mark.....
 
scarysdad said:
This idea of fish not reaching their maximum 'wild' size in aquaria is not so much to do with so-called physical 'stunting' rather it is an unintentional side effect of feeding them an artificial diet. As an avid Plec fan I got myself quite a few exotic L nos early on only to be dismayed when they hardly grew more than an inch every year then all started to die off after five or six....from what I've read this is due to us not being able to captive breed these wild fish so the diet we give them be they herbivorous or carniverous will never provide the exact nutrients that the fish will get through its wild diet. to me these large carniverous fish are the same if you feed them on whole live fish then they will achieve their natural size potential no matter what size tank you try to stuff them in. But if you feed them pellets and dead fish meat like most of us do they will never get to that full potential...just too much missing from the diet.....just my 2p worth. Personally I'm about to attempt a TSN in a 7ft 255gal with the 'get out' clause that my local aquarium will take it should it get over the 30" mark.....
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So its bad that we don't feed live fish? Is this honestly bad for the fish?
I will probably do the same and if I end up getting a tsn for a 180 I will probably give it away for free or put it in my pond.


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No not so much 'bad' for the fish, if you feed decent pellets and plenty of fish fillets/prawns etc to me you are still looking after the animal but you are still trying to suppress its natural 'hunting' instinct. As a fish'keeper' I really do not want to see another live fish eaten by my Pbass or catfish to me that would be cruel to the smaller fish. Think of it like feeding a dog dogfood or a cat catfood, we 'force' a domesticated diet on to the fish I suppose for our selfish need to watch these fish in our houses but the nitty gritty is they eat all the fish in the wild - brains, guts the lot so obviously they get nutrients from this that we are not providing. I have in my 7 footer a Silver Arrowana which is around 27-28" and hasn't visibly grown for a couple of years, she is getting thicker and deeper but not any longer but she has no physical deformities of any sort. My Pbass is around 20" which is maybe 4-5 ahort of wild size . My M. Irwini is around 24" again just maybe that 20% short of max wild size. So here's hoping my TSN and Juruense grow the same way when I get them....
 
The logic of Scarysdad is understandable to me, a layman. Yet, I've never heard an expert/ichthyologist state anything along these lines. It can be argued that the diet offered by responsible keepers is better and more balanced, more varied, and more regular than that in the wild. The water quality is often worse though and lack of exercise room is cited sometimes. Moreover, much more than once I've read and heard high-level experts stating that an exclusive, whole-live-fish diet is bad for large predators we keep (meaning nutritionally, not all that transferable parasite and bacteria stuff). I dearly would love to understand why (still, after years in the hobby) because, as I said, I understand Scarysdad logic.

Another wrench is often thrown in by the experts: an average homo sapiens male is 175 cm tall (probably in 2" platform boots :) ). There are plenty of shorter and taller ones around. Average is average. Max size is, again, different. These are the giants with the best genes for a attaining the max size and there are others.
 
I would be concerned about that fish possibly breaking your glass when either you're feeding it or when it spooks. While i have never experienced this firsthand, I've heard stories of these fish doing this. They don't get the nickname tankbuster for nothing. I know this won't be an issue at first if you plan on buying it small, but when it hits 2 feet its a real possibility, and certainly something to take into consideration.
 
Please do not put a tsn in a 180, mine is less than 2 years old and 30" long and still growing. And I'm fairly sure that this growth is average or maybe a little less than average.

I know if your set in your mind that you want to do it you will do it regardless of what is said.. but I would recommend a Lima as a much better substitute for your tank.

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Slickad85 said:
I would be concerned about that fish possibly breaking your glass when either you're feeding it or when it spooks. While i have never experienced this firsthand, I've heard stories of these fish doing this. They don't get the nickname tankbuster for nothing. I know this won't be an issue at first if you plan on buying it small, but when it hits 2 feet its a real possibility, and certainly something to take into consideration.
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Not discounting your experience and knowledge at all, I thought I'd mention that I always thought the breaking incidents had little to do with the fish. Primarily, they are a result of tank shortcomings. Either a manufacturers defect, or glass not thick enough, bowing too much, or a bad install, uneven stand = glass is under stress, just about to crack.

Also, if we are talking acrylic - chances of that breaking are 100 smaller. If we are talking a large glass tank, try taking a piece of glass of the right thickness and break it say with a hammer. You will amaze yourself how strong blows it will require and how many of them and how tough glass is.
 
thebiggerthebetter said:
... Moreover, much more than once I've read and heard high-level experts stating that an exclusive, whole-live-fish diet is bad for large predators we keep (meaning nutritionally, not all that transferable parasite and bacteria stuff). I dearly would love to understand why (still, after years in the hobby) because, as I said, I understand Scarysdad logic.
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Ok. One piece of that puzzle has to do with the fat content of a fish, dead or alive, being fed to a predator. If I understand it correctly, when people say, as an example, "Do not feed goldfish to your RTC", it means the goldfish, being a cold-water cyprinid (sure it is adaptable but by origin it's a cold-temperate-water fish), is too fat for an RTC and will lead to digestive problems, fat accumulation around the RTC's organs, weakened immune system, etc.

I guess the rule of thumb is that if a tropical predator evolved eating lean cuisine in the wild, only lean food should be given to it (the same reason many caution to remove all fat from a beef heart before giving it to a fish... but there is a whole different side to the story of warm-blooded-animal's fat vs. cold-blooded animal's fat). For a temperate (or cold) water predator, it is not uncommon to eat moderately fatty (or highly fatty) prey in the wild. So that's what we perhaps should strive for. I don't know but maybe if a cold water predator is given only lean food, they too can develop problems - just the other side of the spectrum.

As a personal example, I was giving my baby 14" Zungaro zungaro (jau catfish) a trout. In about 1.5 month, he ate about a pound of it. He was not digesting it right (I see it in the hindsight now). Not that he would not go crazy at feeding - the trout was consumed eagerly, as usual. But afterwards, he would have heavy "hiccups" and "yawns" and strange body contortions and once in a while he would start slamming the tank bottom as if trying to break an intestinal clog or make himself regurgitate. And regurgitate he did, sometimes. Eventually, his skin around the mouth turned yellow and his belly brown-reddish and he lost his appetite altogether. I thought I was gonna lose him but after a 2-week fast, he started eating and behaving normally.

Sure, there must be cases when a jau, RTC, TSN, etc. eat something fatty in the wild, like a Pacu pacu, whose lower 1/3 of the body stores fat for the dry season when the fish does not eat for 4-5 months. I guess, these are occasional meals. ~90% or more is lean.

Just thinking out loud.
 
Finally a intelligent coversation on the "fish only grow to the size of the tank" myth. The flip side of this argument to me is the fish that do readily breed and adapt within the captive aquarium best example is the good old Oscar(A. Ocellatus) this fish is the best example of 'captive evolution' I have never owned an Oscar that did not achieve its 'maximum' size range, wild or tank bred its a safe bet as long as you feed it anything(within reason) it will get to just over a foot(a friend of mine fed his flake only which I told him was cruel but it still got to 12"). Compare this with Frontosa, which I have kept(wrongly) with Malawi Mbuna who require a veggie diet for the most part. So the Fronts are only getting this same restricted diet I have owned 4 and not one got over 8"in a 4 year period... still a perfectly healthy vital adult fish but it max size in the aquarium should be in the 12" range. I bet if I started one off on carniverous pellets with additions of prawns etc they would get to that expected max....to me this is case proven.
Can I ask dirtbikerider what size tank and diet his TSN is in ? Judging by the group of Cichla he has I'm guessing very large tank and feeder fish....? So rightly or wrongly I'm going to try trhis logic out ont the TSN putting it in a 255(84 x 26 x 27), as I say should I get the genetic equivalent of Arnold Ahwarzenegger in a fish I have the 'get out' clause of the aquarium 20 miles away. I will definitely keep you guys informed on its progress......
 
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