Under stocked vs over stocked...

[ecoli73]

#4 It is amusing to see two 8 inch Oscars circling a pile of holey rocks all day long because there are dozens of .5 inch long convict fry hiding in them.

 

[petspoiler]

..........But in the end to each there own, it's like trying to tell someone not to leave their dog in the car no matter what season.... some people think its fine to do, and others think it's a big no-no.

but do even those people stand there at length & inactively watch their animals in a hot car? do they also video & display that publicly?
There is a point at which PPL are just sick. having no insight to the fact that they are irreversibly unmotivated to try anything different. Ever.

What I mean is, this has nothing to do with any view or aspect of The Hobby.
To Overstock or Understock, That is (Not) The Question.

 

[Bderick67]

I think it all comes down to why you keep fish:
Either you keep fish to have your own "slice" of nature
or you keep fish just for the "big" fish and for the sake of having something "cool"
The people who keep fish for the slice of nature are, in my opinion, the "understockers". The people who just want something cool are the people who will cram fish into tanks, like the link shared in this thread.

Really? Well thank you, I always wondered why I keep fish

 

[aldiaz33]

... There is so much BS in this industry reguarding "ideal" husbandry practices it takes dedication just to rifle threw all the crap to get to anything you can take to the bank. as for keeping of large fish... "MFK" has been a hub for exotic and not just large fish... this isn't "Community Fish keepers" So you'll get a more dense ratio of large fish keepers vs.. small fish keepers. "Aquaria Central" is at the top right of the webpage for peopel to use as well....

You are right, it's not "Community Fish Keepers" but it's also not called Monster Fish Killers so if someone doesn't have the resources to keep the true monsters (which, let's be honest, 99% of the people on MFK don't), perhaps they should take your advice and head over to Aquaria Central and keep community fish.

I agree with you that the true monsters in the hobby are not guppies (community fish), so I'm not sure why people think they can keep them as if they were.

If you find your tank full of dead or dying fish, you're doing something wrong...you can take that to the bank.

 

[Drstrangelove]

If you want to be really truthful, if people sees fish the same as dogs/cats etc as they claim; all of them would be out of the hobby when the first improper cycle took the lives of the fish we are keeping.

I feel bad when my fish die and will correct whatever mistake I made(if there is a clear case); however, life goes on and I will replace my dead fish with another one.

I'm not sure that people claim that. I claim that. People name their fish, train them, pet them, keep them one to a tank, avoid long trips unless a trusted relative or friend can step in, easily spend extra cash for the expensive food. How different is this than a cat of dog?

And people lose cats or dogs and get new ones. Much like there are people who are inhumane to their cats and dogs, use them to fight and kill, abuse them with no remorse.

I'm certainly not calling this true for most hobbyists. We're a group of interesting folk, imo, and as has been said, the hobby lends itself to support the likes of many peoples.

Over stocking has many causes although not every one is malicious.

The true measure of a person who regards fish as favorite wet pets is whether they change their behavior once they lose one.

 

[MonsterMinis]

but do even those people stand there at length & inactively watch their animals in a hot car? do they also video & display that publicly?
There is a point at which PPL are just sick. having no insight to the fact that they are irreversibly unmotivated to try anything different. Ever.

What I mean is, this has nothing to do with any view or aspect of The Hobby.
To Overstock or Understock, That is (Not) The Question.

When they return to the car to see the animal half dead.. they do it next time. I've heard them brag about how long they've left their animals "the they where just fine".... so yes? And I compleately agree with you it is sick and sadistic to do such a thing to any animal... but most people don't view their fish to the level we do our dogs... and this is how they get treated... so it should not "shock" anyone worse treatment and more prevelant treatment is seen in our fish pet trade... It's deffinately not right. But until laws are brought about... You can't do anything about it but discourage the behavior as a fish community...

My return question was posed... What defines overstocking vs understocking? Other then the extreames of both "Stacking fish like wood" or "keeping a guppy in a 1k gallon tank" .... where is the acceptable level since keeping them in captivity period is "Overstocking" The general concesnsus seems to be thriving fish... if your fish aren't killing eachother, are breeding, and living close to or past their wild life span... who is joe schmo to complaine how you do it? because the human variable plays the rest of the roll.

I just try not to "judge" people if I odn't know them personally.

 

[MonsterMinis]

You are right, it's not "Community Fish Keepers" but it's also not called Monster Fish Killers so if someone doesn't have the resources to keep the true monsters (which, let's be honest, 99% of the people on MFK don't), perhaps they should take your advice and head over to Aquaria Central and keep community fish.

I agree with you that the true monsters in the hobby are not guppies (community fish), so I'm not sure why people think they can keep them as if they were.

If you find your tank full of dead or dying fish, you're doing something wrong...you can take that to the bank.

With your last comment you're being arrogant once again... I think that would be common sense.. and why alot of people end up at this site reguardless of what fish they keep. Because they got bad advise to begin with. that "Overstocking" is how its just done and fish are replaceable, and if you actually think about it.. It was a brilliant money makeing move by someone who doesn't care about the lives they kill. Only the money they make. They come here and ask 'Why did my fish die?" and you among others jump on your high horse and start flameing the person.. so guess what? instead of enducating and helping others... you either run them off... or encourage them to just quit keeping fish. Most of these are kids as well. It doesn't help the hobby, or anyone else.. and just feeds your ego.

As for people treating monsters like guppies most do not... idk anyone who intends to keep RTC's, Arrowana ect in 10gallon tanks for life.. but they might have one in one and be new here trying to LEARN. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt before assuming they are intentionally abuseing animals... and if they are... It comes apparent pretty quick they are not here ot learn, just brag... and they stop getting help... and they eventually disaapear and find a new hobby.

And thats how "Overstocking" is facilitated. Its and Industry wide issue and instead of trying to discourage it, people discourage fishkeeping altogether or simply drive off anyone wanting to learn.

 

[ecoli73]

I'm not sure that people claim that. I claim that. People name their fish, train them, pet them, keep them one to a tank, avoid long trips unless a trusted relative or friend can step in, easily spend extra cash for the expensive food. How different is this than a cat of dog?

And people lose cats or dogs and get new ones. Much like there are people who are inhumane to their cats and dogs, use them to fight and kill, abuse them with no remorse.

I'm certainly not calling this true for most hobbyists. We're a group of interesting folk, imo, and as has been said, the hobby lends itself to support the likes of many peoples.

Over stocking has many causes although not every one is malicious.

The true measure of a person who regards fish as favorite wet pets is whether they change their behavior once they lose one.

Just an example...When's the last time people took their ailing gold fish to the vet?
and really how many vets are trained to look at fish? Why not? Because the economic support is not there.

Remember I am talking about average people here. For ever pacu mom who redesigns her house for her pacus, there are tens of thousands that don't particularly care to rearrange their life. Yes, they may name their fish, and have little funerals when they die; but lack of the same support health structures for fish in the pet industry speaks volumes about the real relationship between men and fish.

 

[RD.]

Oldfield, RG (2011) Aggression and welfare in a common aquarium fish, the Midas cichlid. Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science 14, pp. 340–360.

Abstract
Many species of fishes are aggressive when placed in small aquaria. Aggression can negatively affect the welfare of those individuals toward whom it is directed. Animals may behave aggressively in order to defend resources such as food, shelter, mates, and offspring. The decision to defend depends on the distribution of resources and on ecological factors such as number of competitors, amount of available space, and amount of habitat complexity. This study tested the effects of these factors on aggression in a common aquarium fish, the Midas cichlid (Amphilophus citrinellus). The study found that time spent behaving aggressively was not associated with small-scale differences in group size or available space. Aggression was significantly lower in a large aquarium with a complex habitat. Aquaria of sizes typically used in the companion animal (pet) hobby did not provide optimal welfare for cichlids housed with aggressive conspecifics. The public should be aware that this and similar species require larger aquaria with complex habitat, which elicit more natural behavior.

Aquarium Fishes Are More Aggressive in Reduced Environments, New Study Finds ScienceDaily (Sep. 22, 2011)

— An angry glare from the family goldfish might not be the result of a missed meal, but a too-humble abode. Fish in a cramped, barren space turn mean, a study from Case Western Reserve University has found. Ornamental fishes across the U.S. might be at risk, all 182.9 million of them.

"The welfare of aquarium fishes may not seem important, but with that many of them in captivity, they become a big deal," said Ronald Oldfield, an instructor of biology at Case Western Reserve. Why, then, has the welfare of pet fishes been overlooked among the scientific community?

Oldfield is the first to scientifically study how the environment of home aquariums affects the aggressive behavior of ornamental fishes. The results are published in the online Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science, volume 14, issue 4.

Oldfield compared the behavior of Midas cichlids (Amphilophus citrinellus) in a variety of environments: within their native range in a crater lake in Nicaragua, in a large artificial stream in a zoo, and in small tanks of the sizes typically used to by pet owners.

The study focused on juvenile fish to remove aggressive behavior related to mating. Also, resources such as food and shelter were removed prior to observation to eliminate direct competition.

Along with environment size, Oldfield tested the complexity of an environment and the effects of number of fish within tanks.

The addition of obstacles and hiding places using rocks, plants, or other similar objects can increase the complexity of the aquarium environment.

He found that an increase in tank size and complexity can reduce harmful aggressive behaviors, and make for healthier fish at home.

Oldfield quantified aggressive behavior as a series of displays and attacks separated by at least a second. Displays are body signals such as flaring fins. An attack could be a nip, chase, or charge at another fish.

In aquariums, these behaviors can lead to injury and in extreme cases to death.

Aggressive behavior was not correlated with small-scale changes in either group size or habitat size alone. However, a significant difference was observed in environments sufficiently large and complex: fish spent less time exhibiting aggressive behavior.

"This more natural environment elicits more natural behaviors
which are more interesting to observers," Oldfield said.

And, for the fish themselves, their lives can be vastly improved with these simple changes to their environments.

"If we are going to try to create a society as just as possible, we need to do everything we can to minimize negative effects," Oldfield said.

But why should anyone beyond fish enthusiasts care about fish behavior?

Minimizing negative effects extends beyond the treatment of ornamental fishes. Interactions between humans and other species could apply.

Humans have intimate relationships with a variety of fishes. They provide food and sport for many people. Some are used for decoration, and others are well-loved pets or may become addicting hobbies.

Additionally, conditions for animals in the rapidly growing field of aquaculture and on factory farms are issues of contention.

Oldfield is not trying to support any extreme agendas. "I'm not trying to ban human use of animals- I just think that if we are going to interact with them then we should be as informed as possible."

Relatively simple fish behavior can also serve as a basic model for more complex behaviors.

In the future, Oldfield said, "This study might help us to better understand how human behavior changes when people are placed in different social environments." Violence in prisons might be linked in part to the smaller space and reduced stimuli.

Until then, the 182.9 million ornamental fishes in the United States may benefit from this study. The family goldfish can swim in peace, enjoying the remodeled space.

 

[tomomothy]

That speaks to the complexity of the environment as well. I've always suspected that having territorial boundaries and natural decor can be a good way to home fish, but there seems to be an ongoing debate on whether decor-less tanks harbor less aggression than decorated tanks. Not trying to derail, I have never seen any publication before this that addressed it.