UV...who needs it?

[varanio]

But is that to say beardies don't benefit at all from UV??

Go back and re read again, I stated they dont need it, I never said they didnt benefit from it. Maybe they could maybe they dont, for me I havent needed it at all, and I used it before I and I was a huge advocate of it, until I tried it out and thought I would see a huge difference. Well it turns out I didnt.

 

[Jessica Dring]

I have read it. I'm NOW asking you do you think they don't benefit.

Because I'm generally interested to find out something new.

Calm down and don't be so quick to jump the gun.

I read what you say perfectly, then ask questions. Perhaps you should the same with my posts rather than think I'm just trying to be a smartybum straight away.

 

[Vicious_Fish]

The only one I have experience with are basilisks .I can affirmatively say the use of uv is very essencial .With out it test subjects have develpoed bone fractures and weakened bone structures in their legs also refered to as mbd(metabolic bone disease).Even with supplementation and absence of uvb basikisks can develope mbd.As well as the plume and crest on test subjects ( males) are neerly half the size as subjects exposed to uv.Coloration is duller as well in subjects not exsposed to uvb. This is based on my own personal testing as well as others over a period of years not weeks . I am not trying to prove anyone wrong or right .I am meerly stating facts based on my personal experience with this one sole species basiliscus plumifrons.

Lol, that's funny that you mentioned that Malawi because I use to breed Basiliscus vittatus and Basiliscus plumifrons. I had read somewhere that UVB light and natural sunlight effected plumifrons colors so I tired an experiment.

The summers are rather hot and humid in southern PA so I had a couple of outdoor enclosures for some of my animals. I had large heated outdoor pen for half of the clutch which ended up being 6 animals. They all had access to full sun at least 15 hours a day. The other 6 I kept indoors with UVB lighting in their enclosure. It was kept on for roughly 15 hours too. I found at the end of the summer after about 3 months that the babies kept outdoors were about an inch to 2 inches longer and they're colors were brilliant emerald green. The babies kept inside were more of a washed out mint green and slightly smaller. Both groups were fed the same.

So in the end I found that natural sun light really did bring out their normal, wild color and they seemed healthier. Some breeders like the turquoise greens they get from indoor, UVB lighting but I loved the natural look myself.

 

[varanio]

Jess the question was answered on page 1 were I stated I dont know, if they do or dont. And restated here just now that I have shared the same success with and without it. I think the answer has been quite apparent from them till now. I used it before and I still got healthy females producing healthy babies clutch after clutch. I have the same results with no UV either. So from my experience with bearded dragons which is the only non monitor species I keep besides cyclura is that they dont need it or benefit from it. Mine express the same growth patterns, size attainments and breeding behaviors as they did when I used it. My cyclura are outside so I mentioned they dont really apply, natural sunlight will always be better than any light bulb imo. I wont touch the subject of iguanas I just dont have any hands on experience there and I admitted that to you long ago.

No jumping the gun here, just asking for you to just have it sink in.

 

[varanio]

Lol, that's funny that you mentioned that Malawi because I use to breed Basiliscus vittatus and Basiliscus plumifrons. I had read somewhere that UVB light and natural sunlight effected plumifrons colors so I tired an experiment.

The summers are rather hot and humid in southern PA so I had a couple of outdoor enclosures for some of my animals. I had large heated outdoor pen for half of the clutch which ended up being 6 animals. They all had access to full sun at least 15 hours a day. The other 6 I kept indoors with UVB lighting in their enclosure. It was kept on for roughly 15 hours too. I found at the end of the summer after about 3 months that the babies kept outdoors were about an inch to 2 inches longer and they're colors were brilliant emerald green. The babies kept inside were more of a washed out mint green and slightly smaller. Both groups were fed the same.

So in the end I found that natural sun light really did bring out their normal, wild color and they seemed healthier. Some breeders like the turquoise greens they get from indoor, UVB lighting but I loved the natural look myself.

Youre such an F ing cheater ha ha ha ha ha ha!!! I cheated too my cyclura are outside year round.

 

[Jessica Dring]

I would have to disagree, I dont think there is a reptile out there that absolutley needs UV light in order to survive. While alot of people think its calcium defeciency debate as whether or not they need it, it should be noted that the most important thing to keep reptiles in good conditions is a temp gradient, and proper diet. Although Im sure it can make the colors more vibrant and what not, I just dont see it being intrical part of their survival. I have never kept any species with UV lights and never had any problems. I think if you were to rephrase the debate as to who can benefit from it, then all the animals mentioned would hold truth.

I see, your right Varanio.

Long posts kinda make it hard for everything to sink in

 

[Ophiuchus]

Lets take it to the extreme, Ophi which you love to do because you love to invite drama into the forum. I dont think a 2.99 green anole is deemed fit as a huge monetary extraction from your funds.

Dude, what is your deal? I'm not trying to argue here. Do you have somethign against me or something? You're the one trying to make this into a mud-slinging fest, not me.

Anyway, I don't think I would have to remind you that while, yes, a green anole is very cheap, I would have to obtain an appropriate enclosure, heating equipment, cage furnishings, and obviously, feed the darn thing. Oh wait!...I suppose I would have to have two cages; one with UV lighting and one without to compare the results. You see, it isn just a little more than 2.99...but whatever, I'm not here to argue my financial situation with you.

the largest breeder of agamids in the US. Agamid international, holds most if not all his stock outside, wouldnt really apply to what you are trying to argue since we are speaking of UV light indoors, right?

You're right; the point is moot here since they're getting UV from sunlight. You said they don't need it at all, and all the evidence you've posted is just pics of your animals and you just mentioned some friends who keep their BDs the same way.

Im not getting into any games of semantics, I was actually supporting your cause and was looking for you to actually bring some concrete evidence about this whole thing

I didn't provide my own experience, because I just didn't feel it was fair to since I didn't take your own experiences as adequate evidence. But here goes, since you asked:

- kept a bearded dragon for 2 years without UV (I was told not) and it died.
- kept a chameleon for one year with UV and it did well
- kept a green iguana for 2 yrs with UV and it did great
- kept a pair of plated lizards for 2 yrs with UV and they did well
- kept a Malagasy spiny iguana for 1 yr with no UV and he didn't do so hot

That's about the sum of my (personal) experience with any herps that arguably require UV lighting. [I suppose we've established in previous discussions that any experience I've had in 9 yrs working in a LRS is void so I won;t even go there]. Now, you're probably going to say something to the effect of, "Wow, not a whole lot of experience there." and you're right. Guess what? I'm not a huge fan of iguanas and BDs and basilisks, etc so I never had any interest to keep them. More of a snake guy myself.

Enough personal crap...lets get back to the topic:

You say: no herp requires UVB, but you do agree that some can benefit from it (BTW, I never said you stated otherwise on that last part); also, you're only drawing this conclusion from your personal experience with BDs and Cyclura.

As of now, I do not 100% agree with you on the first part for the following reasons:
1.) it goes against everything I know/read about BDs (and other lizards previously mentioned), and UVB lighting and how it effects reptiles; in other words, in all of 14+ yrs of knowledge/experience gained, you're the first (and only) person who has stated this claim to me
2.) the only evidence you've provided that supports this are pics of your own healthy BDs. You did mention others that keep their herps with no UV, but have yet to provide details/names. You're probably right, but I'm disinclined to just take your word simply because...
3.) you apparently don't like me for some reason. Perhaps you think you're superior because you know more than me (which is probably true)...dunno for sure.

So....that's where we're at. I acknowledge that you probably know a little more than me, but just try and look at the above discussion from my POV. I wanna believe you, but for the reasons I posted, I just desire a little more concrete proof. You've helped already by ruling out Agama I'ntl. If you would like to provide the names (any relevant contact info) of others who keep their herps in the way your described (no UV whatsoever), fantastic. If not, I'll just have to do the digging myself.


On a side note, you've raised another issue within itself: what constitutes "experience" and "research"? I'll be starting a new thread for the discussion of this matter so it won't effect thsi topic.

 

[malawi haps]

Lol, that's funny that you mentioned that Malawi because I use to breed Basiliscus vittatus and Basiliscus plumifrons. I had read somewhere that UVB light and natural sunlight effected plumifrons colors so I tired an experiment.

The summers are rather hot and humid in southern PA so I had a couple of outdoor enclosures for some of my animals. I had large heated outdoor pen for half of the clutch which ended up being 6 animals. They all had access to full sun at least 15 hours a day. The other 6 I kept indoors with UVB lighting in their enclosure. It was kept on for roughly 15 hours too. I found at the end of the summer after about 3 months that the babies kept outdoors were about an inch to 2 inches longer and they're colors were brilliant emerald green. The babies kept inside were more of a washed out mint green and slightly smaller. Both groups were fed the same.

So in the end I found that natural sun light really did bring out their normal, wild color and they seemed healthier. Some breeders like the turquoise greens they get from indoor, UVB lighting but I loved the natural look myself.

The last male I had (lived 10 years) when I was still a novice keeping them in a 75 gallon . Used to go out in the summer to a open air enclosure and when I brought him back in he always seemed to glow with entensity and have a little more spunk than when he was just inside .That is what sparked me to do my experiments with the uvb lighting .I think sun light is the best but in a pinch for those guys uvb is better than not.I just wish I could find another male .Since him I have raised 7 females and no males .That's why I'm thinking of going with a blue tree for my terrarium . I have no luck getting males from juvi's...He he I'm a basilisks chick magnet !!

 

[Jessica Dring]

I'm just personally wondering why UV requirement is being questioned when people have kept animals with it for years, and there is people alot more experienced than ALL of us here using it, and it considered so 'neccasary' by the general hobby.

One persons case isn't enough to completely question any animals need for it.

This is my opinion, it's not up for argument, as it is just that, my opinion, and arguing will not change it & I won't argue over it, before some one starts.

Points given have gave, at best, an interesting read and is thought provoking IMHO. But not enough to suggest animals do not need UV a rule and/or fact.

 

[loconorc]

Ill help you out with that, the largest breeder of agamids in the US. Agamid international, holds most if not all his stock outside, wouldnt really apply to what you are trying to argue since we are speaking of UV light indoors, right? I wont speak of Uros and iguanas again I dont keep them, and I dont think too many people are breeding them with the exception of a few breeders here or there, nothing in a large scale due to the influx of mass importation which is much cheaper for so called "breeders" who claim skinny dehydrated animals being cb.

Agama International is not the largest breeder of agamids. The only agamids they breed are beardies, Morrocan uros, and Aussie water dragons. The only one on even a fairly large scale are the water dragons. Bert is easily the biggest tegu producer out there. Hes the first guy I would go to for one of those. He is the Frank Retes of tegus, lets put it that way. But hes done about the same with agamids as Frank has with tortoises. He just has a cool name for his business is all.

So on the question of UV, both Franks and Berts animals (or a very large portion of them) get UV whether they need it or not. And both are in different climates. Arizona and Alabama. Both of them have so many baby lizards they dont know what to do with them.

With tegus though, UV is still debateable... They are omnivorous. It seems 99% of herbivourous lizards and need it and 99% of carnivorous ones dont. But I wont be using it when I get one though. I plan on building an outdoor enclosure once we buy a new house next year, and Im sure Ill take him out for plenty outdoor activity, much like Sisco and Varnyard have done and are so well-known for in the tegu community.