What does freedom mean to Americans?

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Spankbelly;1871961; said:
Hey Jay.
I agree with everything you said, mostly.
The part about Canadians being out right rude to Americans is true, and more than a little embarrassing to the rest of us.
Canada and Canadians have many flaws. If you or others pointed them out I'd be the first to agree.
What can I say? Every group has it's jerks.
And people just looking for an outlet for frustration in their sad little lives.
Sometimes people feel the need to blame others for all their problems, when they should be looking at themselves.
And sometimes it's just some drunk fool looking for a fight. If you had not been there I'm sure he would have found some other innocent victim.
Look, I understand the post by yoshi was not intended as a big insult. I don't think he knew how it might be taken. We're working that out.
Nor would I have minded if he had made an actual joke at Canadian expense.
Nothing wrong with a little friendly kidding around between neighbors and friends.
I don't think I am blowing this out of proportion at all. My responses were factual reminders that U.S.A is not America, and sometimes you guys should watch your mouth.
I have been pretty consistent that this is a matter of etiquette.
That this is not simply an issue of U.S.A calling itself America.
But a symptom of a greater problem altogether.
A symptom of general attitude towards others.
As is reflected in some of the responses. An attitude that continues to insist that America is all. America is always right, regardless of truthful fact.
No I don't have an issue with "Joe Smith" calling himself American. Because that is the only real option his government has given him. Joe Smith can't change the world all by himself. Even if he wanted to.
I do have an issue with your government. For not only allowing this to happen, but designing it intentionally. To limit the value in the minds of Americans of anything or anyone who is not officially property of the U.S.A...yet.
It is propaganda. It is programing of the citizenship. It is wrapping every U.S. citizen in the AMERICAN! flag from the moment of birth.
It is with intent. It is with malice. It is with disrespect.
As I have said, there are many good and great things about the U.S.A.
But there is another side to that.
A side that is dark, ugly and scary.

THERE IT IS!!!!!! See Spank, what you failed to realize is, that was a joke! Thats why there was a "smiley" there! I couldn't imagine your post being anything but a witty crack at the US, so I cracked back. The problem is, the is an issue you are sensitive about (probably somewhat rightfully so) and you responded with, well, anger.
 
hamato_yoshii;1872083; said:
THERE IT IS!!!!!! See Spank, what you failed to realize is, that was a joke! Thats why there was a "smiley" there! I couldn't imagine your post being anything but a witty crack at the US, so I cracked back. The problem is, the is an issue you are sensitive about (probably somewhat rightfully so) and you responded with, well, anger.



No yoshi, not anger.
Not to that.
My reply was stating a fact.
That there is a line and you crossed it.
You can put smilies all over n:D g :eek:r:banhim:
You still can't say it.
Any anger or frustration I have shown is a result of what followed.
Not necessarily just by you.
Insistence that this behaver is not only acceptable, but correct.
Our problem was that you did not understand why I was insulted.
After explaining my position to you, you have been open and even curious.
You may not agree that I am justified in my opinion or action.
But at least you have shown that you took the time to listen and understand as best you can.
That shows respect, yoshi.
To listen to someone when you don't agree, when they are saying you are wrong...that's respect.
You don't have to agree with me.
Not on this, or any other issue.
I will have the same respect for you.
 
SemperFish;1871998; said:
Only read bits and pieces of what everyone has been saying so far and I dont want to get immersed in the flaming going on. My reccommendation - Read the constitution. then ask yourself, "How many countries actually have a constitution?"
the great nation of the United States has many flaws, flaws that are often a result of our democratic process. When we were first invading Iraq I saw entire towns that had been denied water, electricity and other essentials by Saddams regime. I also saw dead and barely living prisoners of Saddams government that had had their mouths sewn shut. Kind of puts the fact that you cant own a snakehead in perspective. We certainly have plenty to piss and moan about, but noone gets raped, tortured or killed for it.


Well Canada has a constitution. Which includes the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
But I just tried to read through it and I have to admit, it's a bit dull.
And it's not really a "constitution" as you know it. It's more a listing of rules and how things work.
Yours has much more spice. Yours is more about ideas. Or ideals. General ideals about the spirit of the country. Not a list of how things are. Ideals of how things should be.
Yours is basic and direct. It was written by those who actually cared about the citizens they were representing. With a bit more passion than just legal mumbo jumbo.
And it does not "stack the deck" in favor of big government at the expense of the people.
Not that mine does. I wouldn't know. Booorinnng.
Yours is pretty good, yeah.
It's been a while since I've read it. But at the time, I never thought of anything that should be added or taken out.
I don't know if any other countries have one. But I certainly can't think of any that have a better one. Including Canada.
I'd have to read it again before I cast my vote...but I don't think I'd mind if we just took a photo copy and taped it all over our igloos .
So I think you have a good point.



Also, we are so similar this may apply to the USA.
I have been arrested once or twice. Sometimes I was guilty, sometimes innocent. Sometimes for rather hefty charges. Like 10-15 years min mandatory time.
So I read a few law books to know how to defend myself. The thing that really shocked me was how much the rules are in favor of the citizen and not the gov't.
When you are looking at 10 years for something you didn't do, it's a relief to know that the same system that is trying to lock you up is also trying to save you.
I kept reading law after law and thinking they were beautiful.
Seriously using that word. It's like poetry.
Not because I found some loophole to save my guilty hide.
But because the system was so well thought out, and gives power to the citizen.
The system does not assume things are as they should be in utopia.
It factors in the reality of human nature and assumes everyone is guilty and lying. Including the police, prosecutors and judges.
And it always gives the benefit of doubt to the accused.
I know this is not always good. Because guilty people get off.
But if you are that innocent guy...If you ran into that one bad cop who doesn't mind fudging some evidence to settle a grudge or close a file quick and dirty, or a young Crown Prosecutor who tells you he knows you are innocent but needs to go for the easy win to make a name for himself...
Well, these laws are beautiful poetry.
I don't know if I get to have a say in what freedom means in America.
But if I were to give a serious answer it would be just that...freedom.
You are right to compare how other countries mistreat their people.
Instead ours takes their own power and hands it to the citizen.
I was so freaked that I was going down for the count. All the odds were against me. The police were lying, the prosecutor was lying and the Gov't reached down to save me.
That's freedom.
When a government takes it's own power and gives it to the lowest of it's people.
 
Spankbelly;1872159; said:
No yoshi, not anger.
Not to that.
My reply was stating a fact.
That there is a line and you crossed it.
You can put smilies all over n:D g :eek:r:banhim:
You still can't say it.
Any anger or frustration I have shown is a result of what followed.
Not necessarily just by you.
Insistence that this behaver is not only acceptable, but correct.
Our problem was that you did not understand why I was insulted.
After explaining my position to you, you have been open and even curious.
You may not agree that I am justified in my opinion or action.
But at least you have shown that you took the time to listen and understand as best you can.
That shows respect, yoshi.
To listen to someone when you don't agree, when they are saying you are wrong...that's respect.
You don't have to agree with me.
Not on this, or any other issue.
I will have the same respect for you.

Well, I can understand that it offended you, also I'm not sure how I showed that I don't understand, just simply that I didn't agree. But your line about "crossing the line" I think does prove my point though. It was/is a sensitive area and it offended you. Do you think that maybe your OP offended me? Well....it didn't really, and I took it as a joke by you and fired back. I don't think I crossed the line, I think I said a joke, and crossed your line.
BTW, I appreciate the last part of your post, and the feelings are mutual. :) Hope you don't mind the smiley....:)
 
Freedom in America means means that if you play by the rules, you get left alone. Our representative form of government makes those rules, and those representatives are elected by us. That system is obviously not perfect, a perfect example of this is when the average person can't afford to spend millions of dollars on lobbying for their interest, while one company or group of companies can band together and pursuade the representatives WE elect to legislate things that the voting public may not be in favor of (aka special interests).

To me, true freedom doesn't really exist, and the true nature of freedom starts to get really philisophical. You are always at the mercy of your environment, and as long as you have wants and needs, you are going to have to play a game of give and take in order to survive.

Who is more free? Someone in a free economy that pays taxes, abides by the laws, and works every day in job of their choosing, or a guy on a desert island that lives off of the land and doesn't have to answer to anybody?
 
elevatethis;1873138; said:
Freedom in America means means that if you play by the rules, you get left alone. Our representative form of government makes those rules, and those representatives are elected by us. That system is obviously not perfect, a perfect example of this is when the average person can't afford to spend millions of dollars on lobbying for their interest, while one company or group of companies can band together and pursuade the representatives WE elect to legislate things that the voting public may not be in favor of (aka special interests).

To me, true freedom doesn't really exist, and the true nature of freedom starts to get really philisophical. You are always at the mercy of your environment, and as long as you have wants and needs, you are going to have to play a game of give and take in order to survive.

Who is more free? Someone in a free economy that pays taxes, abides by the laws, and works every day in job of their choosing, or a guy on a desert island that lives off of the land and doesn't have to answer to anybody?

I guess it depends on how you define it. ;)

"To me, true freedom doesn't really exist, and the true nature of freedom starts to get really philisophical. You are always at the mercy of your environment, and as long as you have wants and needs, you are going to have to play a game of give and take in order to survive."
This is kind of interesting though...
 
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So I did some checking and as far as I can tell, every officially recognized country has a constitution.
It's kind of required, or no one will take you seriously.
It's like photo I.D. You don't get to join the party without it.
Apparently "constitution" is a literal translation. It means "made up of".
It is a listing of lands and territories, government structure and stuff like that.
So that everyone knows who you are.
So when you get to the party and people ask who you are, you flash your I.D. and we all know you.
This is needed so that countries, particularly neighbors, can officially agree on the territories governed by each nation.
If we did not have constitutions we'd be saying "Hey! That's my land. Get out of there!" and the reply "Oh yeah? Who said it was yours? We never agreed to that! Looks like we'll have a war and settle who can fish in that water."
This is part of being officially recognized.
Which means that other countries have read and agreed to what you are claiming as yours.
This is why there are unrecognized countries.
Either they don't have identification, or the rest of us don't think it is valid.
You can't just say you are an independent sovereign nation. You have to prove it.
You have to officially declare what is yours and what is not. Where your lands begin and end.
And all the other countries must agree with you.
So if you are a big tough warlord you might just take land that belongs to someone else. And you might claim it is yours, your country.
If the other nations agree with you, then it is your country. And we stay out.
But if we don't agree, you are just a thief in occupied territory.
This is why U.S.A made a constitution in the first place.
After they became strong enough to not need or want attachments to the mother countries that funded the occupation of the territory known today as the U.S.A.
Basically they said "Listen up Mom and Dad! I'm all grown up now. I don't really need you telling me what to do anymore! And to prove it, here's my I.D. See that? I'm an adult and I'll do what I want when I want. So back off and stay out of my affairs."
Having a constitution does not make you special.
We all have one.

So the post about your constitution, which I agreed with, is in error.
The rights and freedoms we are talking about are instead listed in your Declaration of Independence.

Back in the day, the U.SA. Said "We are a sovereign nation. Mind your business."
And Europe said "What? Listen you little punk! We gave birth to you! We are your stake holders! By what right are you claiming independence?"

And The U.S.A said...
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IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
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hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

The U.S.A said "Look old man, you're a bit of a poo poo head. I'm sick of your crap! I'm moving out."

And the world said "Hey, stake holders...these guys might have a point."
And the word recognized you as an independent nation.
So it is not the constitution that makes you unique.
Nor is it that you have officially listed rights and freedoms. Most countries do that.
What makes you special is that you wrote your rights and freedoms while you were fighting with your parents. So these rights have some adolescent attitude with them. Some of "We are sick of big government and we want to be free to do what we want."
And linked them with your constitution.
So that these rights are officially part of what makes you the U.S.A.

Other countries have official rights and freedoms. (like mine, but we were and still are officially linked with mother Britain)
You are not all that special, or necessarily more free.
But some of your rights and freedoms are linked directly to your constitution (with a bit of sassy attitude). Which makes them harder to change or take away. Not without officially redefining what U.S.A means in the first place. And not without changing your claim to independence.


That's my understanding anyway.
I might have it wrong. I've not had much time for research.
If corrections are necessary, feel free.
 
And that is why they named it U.S.A
They said "We are colonies of Britain no longer.
We are free states.
We stand united against the fatherland.
We are the United States of America."
 
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