What does freedom mean to Americans?

[rmorse]

Sigh, Spank, I started reading your post, until I realized that almost all of it was just quotes from a dictionary and insults thrown at me, instead of an attempt to understand what I was saying.


Context my friend, CONTEXT.

Take the word f@ggot. I can not even type that word, because it is censored out. And why? Because it is a bundle of sticks? A cigarette? No. Because in means something completely different depending on the context. It has a nasty edge to it.

Take American. In one context, American means a citizen of U.S.A. And that is what we are referring to in this thread. And guess what? You knew it. But, you couldn't leave that alone, could you? No, you had to go on a rampage saying that American does not mean a citizen of U.S.A., how dare you! You ignorant little children, I can be American too! Well, true, but not in this context, Ace. And that is why I had beef with you.

Oh, and read back a few threads. I never insulted you to begin with, yet you jumped on me after my post. I guess you thought I was the one who insulted you? Weird. A Review, shall we? (Perhaps just to show that I too can copy and paste!)

You:

Yeah you got me.
We play winter sports. Spice up our alcohol with a little alcohol. And have health care.
You burned me good.

Actually there are many good, maybe even great things about your country.
But something that is not so good is the attitude that you are all that is.
There are 194 recognized independent countries in the world.
America is made up of 34.
Which are contained in North America. Central America. And South America.
Collectively these countries are known as the Americas.
Your country is named the United States of America.
You and I ,and countless others, are all Americans.
It is when you forget this fact that you show your ignorance and limitless arrogance.
Yes much of the world is envious of your wealth, power and freedoms.
But they harbor outright hatred towards you because of the way you carry yourselves in this world.

Me:

No. We are American. This is the United States of America we are talking about. You are Canadian. Not American. You live in North America. Not the United States of America.

Way to turn playful kidding into an attack.


You: (I especially like the fact that you deny it as an attack, after saying we are arrogant, ignorant, and carry ourselves in a egotistical manner)

I am not attacking you.
I am pointing out something you (and others reading this) may not be aware of.
And I'm not talking about geography, I assume someone taught you that. I'm talking about respect.
America is not a country. It is a continent large enough to span two hemispheres. And yes WE are Americans.
I am Canadian. North American. And American. North America refers to Canada and the U.S.A. American refers citizens of the entire continent and some island nations.
Yes I know this is nit picking. But this is a real issue that aggravates anyone who lives in the rest of the Americas.
Yes I know you usually say American as a matter of convenience rather than hostility. It is so clumsy to say "I am a citizen of the United States of America." And easier to say "I am American." Most of the time no offense is intended.
But posting that you are American while I am not, and that this automatically quantifies you as something better, is hostile.
I posted something about your legal system.
You posted that you would like to be clever enough to insult Canadians but can't be bothered because YOU are AMERICA and the opinions of others are irrelevant even if correct.
But regardless, I'll let that go.
I know it is just a turn of phrase. It is convenient speech. I know you did not intend any real insult.
I'm just letting you know that while you might not notice the meaning of your words, the people who are receiving them do.
The people of all the nations around you. The people who might see U.S. citizens individually as decent honorable human beings.
But see the whole of U.S.A. as a giant mountain of crap. So arrogant that they actually took the name of half the world as their own. So self centered that they didn't even notice, or care, when they did it.
Just think about that for a while.
And don't justify it. That only proves the point.
If you want to know what it means to be a U.S. citizen, take a step back and think about how other eyes see you.
It is not always pretty.


And if you reread that, that is where I would assume you are responding to me, saying that I insulted you.


Once again, we are talking about two different Americans. One pertains to a citizen of the United States of America, and one pertains to someone who lives in North, Central, and South America. Which is what I had been attempting to explain from the beginning.

 

[rmorse]

Ok Spank, I have actually read over your post, trying to ignore the dripping sarcasm to get to your real point. And the problem, it seems, is one cannot say anything according to your views. I mean, cmon, I can't say "today's culture". I may be young (21), but do not make the assumption that I am uneducated. And do not try to pretend that that was not what you were doing. I say "today's culture", assuming that you would understand the culture I am referring to is the Western Culture. And why? Because that is the culture we are talking about. Perhaps I should not have been so quick to assume that you would have made that leap.
It seems from your posts that no matter what word I say, it will be construed into some other meaning to benefit your stance. Perhaps that is the way to debate these days. Personally, I just see it as a way to attack the speaker instead of the point.

Do you mean to tell me that when I said "today's culture" you honestly sat back and said, wait a minute, thats not right! The Matses Indians from the Rio Galvez don't think that! Hey, he is wrong!

Because if this is the case, I don't think there really is any point in talking with you. Because I can't think of any way to make every point I say politically correct. I don't know how to word it so that no matter what your religion, race, culture, etc., you can not be offended in anyway. Because it doesn't matter. No matter what, someone will find something to be offended by, regardless of how petty it is. Perhaps I should enter in each word into the dictionary, to double check to make sure its Latin surname does not mean something else, so I don't get backed into a corner. But guess what. I don't want to do that. No, I would rather have a normal conversation, a normal debate with someone. I guess that ain't going to happen on this thread. Oh dear, I said ain't. Aw man, hopefully that won't come back to haunt me. I mean, that could be construed as slang. Slang means uneducated. Uneducated means poor. Poor means no money. No money means slavery. Slavery means black people. OH NOES, I AM TEH RACIST?!?!?!

 

[hamato_yoshii]

 

[Spankbelly]

Ok Spank, I have actually read over your post, trying to ignore the dripping sarcasm to get to your real point. And the problem, it seems, is one cannot say anything according to your views. I mean, cmon, I can't say "today's culture". I may be young (21), but do not make the assumption that I am uneducated. And do not try to pretend that that was not what you were doing. I say "today's culture", assuming that you would understand the culture I am referring to is the Western Culture. And why? Because that is the culture we are talking about. Perhaps I should not have been so quick to assume that you would have made that leap.
It seems from your posts that no matter what word I say, it will be construed into some other meaning to benefit your stance. Perhaps that is the way to debate these days. Personally, I just see it as a way to attack the speaker instead of the point.

Do you mean to tell me that when I said "today's culture" you honestly sat back and said, wait a minute, thats not right! The Matses Indians from the Rio Galvez don't think that! Hey, he is wrong!

Because if this is the case, I don't think there really is any point in talking with you. Because I can't think of any way to make every point I say politically correct. I don't know how to word it so that no matter what your religion, race, culture, etc., you can not be offended in anyway. Because it doesn't matter. No matter what, someone will find something to be offended by, regardless of how petty it is. Perhaps I should enter in each word into the dictionary, to double check to make sure its Latin surname does not mean something else, so I don't get backed into a corner. But guess what. I don't want to do that. No, I would rather have a normal conversation, a normal debate with someone. I guess that ain't going to happen on this thread. Oh dear, I said ain't. Aw man, hopefully that won't come back to haunt me. I mean, that could be construed as slang. Slang means uneducated. Uneducated means poor. Poor means no money. No money means slavery. Slavery means black people. OH NOES, I AM TEH RACIST?!?!?!

OK look man…
You and I don’t differ greatly on this.
I am not disrespecting you.
Well maybe a little. But you have also disrespected me, more than a little.
I absolutely agree that it is a matter of context.
There is nothing wrong with you saying “I am an American” or “We are America”.
In context.
When you are actually just describing yourself.
When you mean “I am a citizen of the United States of America. Neighbour to the Americas.”
“I am American.”
Yes everyone, including myself, knows what you mean.
“I am American. We are America.”
This is in no way offensive.
Because it is not intended to be offensive.
While that particular bit of shorthand may be slightly inaccurate, it is the only option available.
Everyone understands how time consuming it would be to run around all day saying “Citizen of the United States of America.”
Nobody gets too overheated when you shorten it to “I am American.” “We are America.”
When that is ALL you are saying.
When that is the only intent behind those words.
Someone asking the question “What does freedom mean in America?”
That’s fine.
He’s just asking “What does freedom mean in the United States of America?"
A valid question.
No offense intended. None taken.
My reaction was not to this...
“What does freedom mean in America?”
It was to this…

Originally Posted by hamato_yoshii Being free in America, is knowing that I have the right (and duty) to write a really funnny and true insult about hockey, beer, and healthcare, in response to canadiens trying to poke fun at us, but also knowing that since we're America, and they're Canada, I don't even have to.

“Because I am American I have the right and even the duty to insult. But I don’t have to. I don’t have to think of anything to say. Because we are America. And that is enough. We are America, and that is insult enough. Because I am American. And in my America I am all there is. We ARE America. No one else has relevance. WE are AMERICA. And others are not worthy of even insults. WE ARE AMERICA. We are all that is.”

There is a difference in intent.
A difference in context.

“We are America (the United States of America) and we are this and this and so and so. And in these ways we differentiate ourselves from the other countries of North America. In these ways we are unique among the countries of the Americas.”

O.K.

“We are America. And by We are America I mean WE are all that matters in the Americas. We can call ourselves America. When we know that is not just our name, but the name of others. Because We are AMERICA. We are all that is.”

Not O.K.


Also, I don't know why you keep going on about how I think I am smarter then you.
Or better educated.
Or that I think I am older and wiser.
Just so you know...I didn't go to University or anything.
I dropped out of school half way through grade nine. To keep the family farm running.
My education was picking rocks. Literally.
I am not a lawyer or spin doctor or anything like that.
I work in a warehouse, where I stack boxes of meat.
Boxes and boxes and boxes and boxes and boxes.
From rocks to boxes. That's as far as I got.
But it does give me time to think about things.
I am not much older than you.
I am not better educated than you.
I am not smarter than you.
But I do know when someone is kicking sand in my face.
I'm not sure why you would take personnel offense when I say "Hey man! Cut it out."
Or when you say "What? I didn't notice I was doing anything wrong. What are you talking about?"
And I say "OK. Well, this is what you are doing just so you know..."
That is not me saying you are stupid. Not really.
I will admit I have insinuated that you are a bit dim.
But for the record, I don't think you are a stupid person.
You just say stupid things.

 

[Spankbelly]

Sigh, Spank, I started reading your post, until I realized that almost all of it was just quotes from a dictionary and insults thrown at me, instead of an attempt to understand what I was saying.


Context my friend, CONTEXT.

Take the word f@ggot. I can not even type that word, because it is censored out. And why? Because it is a bundle of sticks? A cigarette? No. Because in means something completely different depending on the context. It has a nasty edge to it.

Take American. In one context, American means a citizen of U.S.A. And that is what we are referring to in this thread. And guess what? You knew it. But, you couldn't leave that alone, could you? No, you had to go on a rampage saying that American does not mean a citizen of U.S.A., how dare you! You ignorant little children, I can be American too! Well, true, but not in this context, Ace. And that is why I had beef with you.

Oh, and read back a few threads. I never insulted you to begin with, yet you jumped on me after my post. I guess you thought I was the one who insulted you? Weird. A Review, shall we? (Perhaps just to show that I too can copy and paste!)

You:

Yeah you got me.
We play winter sports. Spice up our alcohol with a little alcohol. And have health care.
You burned me good.

Actually there are many good, maybe even great things about your country.
But something that is not so good is the attitude that you are all that is.
There are 194 recognized independent countries in the world.
America is made up of 34.
Which are contained in North America. Central America. And South America.
Collectively these countries are known as the Americas.
Your country is named the United States of America.
You and I ,and countless others, are all Americans.
It is when you forget this fact that you show your ignorance and limitless arrogance.
Yes much of the world is envious of your wealth, power and freedoms.
But they harbor outright hatred towards you because of the way you carry yourselves in this world.

Me:

No. We are American. This is the United States of America we are talking about. You are Canadian. Not American. You live in North America. Not the United States of America.

Way to turn playful kidding into an attack.


You: (I especially like the fact that you deny it as an attack, after saying we are arrogant, ignorant, and carry ourselves in a egotistical manner)

I am not attacking you.
I am pointing out something you (and others reading this) may not be aware of.
And I'm not talking about geography, I assume someone taught you that. I'm talking about respect.
America is not a country. It is a continent large enough to span two hemispheres. And yes WE are Americans.
I am Canadian. North American. And American. North America refers to Canada and the U.S.A. American refers citizens of the entire continent and some island nations.
Yes I know this is nit picking. But this is a real issue that aggravates anyone who lives in the rest of the Americas.
Yes I know you usually say American as a matter of convenience rather than hostility. It is so clumsy to say "I am a citizen of the United States of America." And easier to say "I am American." Most of the time no offense is intended.
But posting that you are American while I am not, and that this automatically quantifies you as something better, is hostile.
I posted something about your legal system.
You posted that you would like to be clever enough to insult Canadians but can't be bothered because YOU are AMERICA and the opinions of others are irrelevant even if correct.
But regardless, I'll let that go.
I know it is just a turn of phrase. It is convenient speech. I know you did not intend any real insult.
I'm just letting you know that while you might not notice the meaning of your words, the people who are receiving them do.
The people of all the nations around you. The people who might see U.S. citizens individually as decent honorable human beings.
But see the whole of U.S.A. as a giant mountain of crap. So arrogant that they actually took the name of half the world as their own. So self centered that they didn't even notice, or care, when they did it.
Just think about that for a while.
And don't justify it. That only proves the point.
If you want to know what it means to be a U.S. citizen, take a step back and think about how other eyes see you.
It is not always pretty.


And if you reread that, that is where I would assume you are responding to me, saying that I insulted you.


Once again, we are talking about two different Americans. One pertains to a citizen of the United States of America, and one pertains to someone who lives in North, Central, and South America. Which is what I had been attempting to explain from the beginning.

America as U.S.A. :context of
Post #87 #92 #110 #120 #134

Start over at #84
Actually read all the posts this time.
All the words.
Then tell me I do not understand using America acceptably in context.
I am willing to listen to you talk.
But once in a while you might want to hear what has already been said.

 

[Spankbelly]

United Statesian sounds pretty lame too, it's a mouthful.

Yeah, it needs some work.
But thanks for having an open mind.
If the U.S.S.R could find a solution, I have hope fore the U.S.A.

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, now that's a mouthful.
Soviet Union. Shorter.
Soviet. Short and sweet.
Soviets. Almost as short and even sweeter.
And unique. There may have been other communist countries. But only one had a Soviet government, to which that refers.
Luckily they had a few million defectors before they had to simplify U.S.S.R to ASIA.
Russian Federation. Still not bad.
Russia. Even better.
Russian. Just right.

 

[JayK1320]

Originally Posted by hamato_yoshii Being free in America, is knowing that I have the right (and duty) to write a really funnny and true insult about hockey, beer, and healthcare, in response to canadiens trying to poke fun at us, but also knowing that since we're America, and they're Canada, I don't even have to.

Wow I am very impressed to see the progress of this thread...DP I wonder if you can just print all this out and hand it in as a paper saying, this is freedom right here! The ability to argue your point versus someone else's without being shot, jailed or beat for your point of view and opinion.

Now, Spank, I just want to point out I think you are reading way into h_y's post. I don't really want to get in the middle of a huge debate here, but I think you are looking to deep into his post for a meaning that was never intended. I understand completely what you are saying as far as some American's taking for granted what we have and disregarding the rest of the Americas. I actually have a good friend that is Canadian that I see on occasion and I love to discuss our different points and views on things. He is much older, smarter and intelligent than I, but he has also lived for 35-40 more years than I have. Not only that, but he has been a citizen of both countries and his views are very interesting to me as a young "American" of 24 years. I think h_y was never intentionally insulting you or your country or the rest of the Americas. He was making a bit of a funny joke that has been read into and take way out of context, as you have made great mention of context in your posts, I think his comment needs to be put in context. I have had multiple friends from Canada growing up in HS and College. I went to College in upstate NY not 15 minutes from the boarder. I have meet and befriended plenty citizens of Canada. I can guarantee that I made a joke to them about being Canada multiple times, not because I hate your country or think that we are better then you or anything. But because it is the nature of people to have fun with each other. I bust them for one thing or another, they do the same to me. I say your Canadian, they say your a fat American. The ball rolls on.

While at College I took a few trips to Canada, and I must say I have never been to any US city in any place of our country and saw banners or spray paint saying "F**k Canada!" or "Canada s**ks" so on and so forth. I was absolutely shocked and taken back by some of the things I saw in your country in regards to ours. Not only that but I took a venture out to the local bar the night I was there, we where in a group of maybe 20-30 people. I was sitting in a booth with 2 other girls from our party and literally a fight almost broke out with one of the girls I was with because a Canadian was upset that "American's" were in their bar. We were there being quite, respectful and acting no different than any other person in that entire bar, be it Canadian or a citizen of the US. So while I agree with some of your points, I think you might need to realize your country is as full of the type of person you are describing as ours is. Neither entity is 100% not at fault in this situation. Some US citizen hate Canadians, some Canadians hate "Americans". This is why it makes it so difficult to joke and have fun with everyone else. If people stood back for 30 seconds and thought about what was really taking place this world would be a lot happier of a place. People this day and age are so fast to get upset and blow up at someone else it is insane. Literally just the other day I was trying to merge into traffic and someone thought I was trying to cut them off so they flipped me off! I am just trying to flow in traffic the same as everyone else, I tried to adjust my speed to meet that of the flow and merge. They though I was cutting them off and they choose not to hit the breaks slightly to let me pull in, instead they beep their horn and flip me off for a 1/4 mile down the road. This is the major issues with most of todays society. Everyone is too self involved to look at everyone else and consider their actions or intentions. So right there I agree with some of your points in that some Americans are too self involved to realize their is more to the Americas than just the US. But on the same token, I think you took h-y's comment way to harshly for what it was intended. I think it was more of a joke and off the cuff comment.

Now, we all need to do something that Americans (for lack of a better term still) and Canadians can enjoy together and agree on...go get a beer!

Its 5 o'clock somewhere

 

[Spankbelly]

Hey Jay.
I agree with everything you said, mostly.
The part about Canadians being out right rude to Americans is true, and more than a little embarrassing to the rest of us.
Canada and Canadians have many flaws. If you or others pointed them out I'd be the first to agree.
What can I say? Every group has it's jerks.
And people just looking for an outlet for frustration in their sad little lives.
Sometimes people feel the need to blame others for all their problems, when they should be looking at themselves.
And sometimes it's just some drunk fool looking for a fight. If you had not been there I'm sure he would have found some other innocent victim.
Look, I understand the post by yoshi was not intended as a big insult. I don't think he knew how it might be taken. We're working that out.
Nor would I have minded if he had made an actual joke at Canadian expense.
Nothing wrong with a little friendly kidding around between neighbors and friends.
I don't think I am blowing this out of proportion at all. My responses were factual reminders that U.S.A is not America, and sometimes you guys should watch your mouth.
I have been pretty consistent that this is a matter of etiquette.
That this is not simply an issue of U.S.A calling itself America.
But a symptom of a greater problem altogether.
A symptom of general attitude towards others.
As is reflected in some of the responses. An attitude that continues to insist that America is all. America is always right, regardless of truthful fact.
No I don't have an issue with "Joe Smith" calling himself American. Because that is the only real option his government has given him. Joe Smith can't change the world all by himself. Even if he wanted to.
I do have an issue with your government. For not only allowing this to happen, but designing it intentionally. To limit the value in the minds of Americans of anything or anyone who is not officially property of the U.S.A...yet.
It is propaganda. It is programing of the citizenship. It is wrapping every U.S. citizen in the AMERICAN! flag from the moment of birth.
It is with intent. It is with malice. It is with disrespect.
As I have said, there are many good and great things about the U.S.A.
But there is another side to that.
A side that is dark, ugly and scary.

 

[SemperFish]

Only read bits and pieces of what everyone has been saying so far and I dont want to get immersed in the flaming going on. My reccommendation - Read the constitution. then ask yourself, "How many countries actually have a constitution?"
the great nation of the United States has many flaws, flaws that are often a result of our democratic process. When we were first invading Iraq I saw entire towns that had been denied water, electricity and other essentials by Saddams regime. I also saw dead and barely living prisoners of Saddams government that had had their mouths sewn shut. Kind of puts the fact that you cant own a snakehead in perspective. We certainly have plenty to piss and moan about, but noone gets raped, tortured or killed for it.

 

[USMCtanker]

ill just keep my mouth shut, it always gets me in touble lol