What does freedom mean to Americans?

[Spankbelly]

Spank here is my problem.

The way our discussion started was pretty heated just because of the fact that there were some misunderstandings, probably on both sides. I was thinking that our discussion/debate had progressed since then, to both sides offering some facts, and opinions to support their side. You may not like to see the word opinion there but, I think that in a debate like this unfortunately a lot of the fuel does rest on opinions and not fact. Anyway, while I was hoping that this thread would continue to progress out of name-calling, and subtle "bringing down" of the other side, it hasn't. I respect your opinions, and admire your tenacity in debate (as I am a debater myself). I appreciate the time you put into these posts (as most don't) and I appreciate your style of debate and logic. However, it bothers me that you continue to soil such well thought out responses with your condescending and demeaning words that are meant either to inflame or bring down, but either way inappropriate. I hope that this may help this situation, but for some reason I doubt it. I am on here debating a lot, and most of the time instead of finding worthy opponents, I just get laughed at because most normal people can't carry on like we do. I fully understand that we are probably the weird one's, and I'm ok with that. But, it sucks when I do come across someone who does enjoy debate, to find out that they do it in the manner you do, because, frankly, it takes the fun out of it. There's nothing wrong with a little joking, but if you think I'm dull enough not to notice what your doing, your wrong. And, unfortunately for this discussion, my patience is wearing thin with trying to put out the flames that you are subtly trying so hard to fan, or maybe pour gas on.

Then debate.
I say you are washed in propaganda and do not see.
You don't debate that.
You just insult twice.
So debate it.
Give examples of propaganda that you do notice.
Or debate it's existence at all.
Crying is not debating,
it's just crying.
Also, I'm sorry but I just can't think of a nice way to call a rapist a rapist.

I'd like to debate with you.
Let me know when you'd like to start.

 

[rmorse]

Then debate.
I say you are washed in propaganda and do not see.
You don't debate that.
You just insult twice.
So debate it.
Give examples of propaganda that you do notice.
Or debate it's existence at all.
Crying is not debating,
it's just crying.
Also, I'm sorry but I just can't think of a nice way to call a rapist a rapist.

I'd like to debate with you.
Let me know when you'd like to start .

Belittling and insults.

Perhaps you should start debating in a more mature manner.

 

[Spankbelly]

And that is why I left the debate a long time ago. I stated on this thread that it won't end. There is no point in trying to have a debate here, because he does not acknowledge the points; rather, he belittles both them and the user who posted them.

You have yet to make a point worth acknowledging rmorse.
I can tell you are not stupid. (that line includes you too yoshi)
Needlessly stubborn (I can relate), but not stupid.
You have the impression that me disagreeing with your mistaken idea equals me belittling the mind that idea came from.
So you stubbornly hold to a flawed position because you think I am trying to make you admit you are stupid for ever thinking that way.
I am often mistaken. That does not mean I am stupid or foolish. It just means I didn't have all the information, or didn't evaluate it fully, when I originally formed an opinion.
If I am shown new information to factor, or a new way to value it, I can alter my opinion without feeling degraded.
The comparison of the Americas to Asia was a good idea.
If we reversed positions and I argued your side, I may also have used that, and hoped you didn't realize or point out why it is flawed.
It is possible that you are correct in all things. Maybe you know the truth of the world. It just might be that your eyes are the eyes of Gods and you miss nothing.
But you have yet to convince me of that.
Instead of realizing you need to give a better and true argument to support your view, or realizing that your view itself is off, you get cranky and take your ball home.
That's too bad. It is a loss to me.

 

[Spankbelly]

Belittling and insults.

Perhaps you should start debating in a more mature manner.

yoshi has not debated.
He listened to me say America is not U.S.A and asked what he should call it.
He did not falsely argue against me. I appreciate that.
Then he felt insulted when I said some U.S. citizens don't recognize propaganda. But he did not tell me how or when he does see it.
And that's what I'd like to know. It would be a little reassuring to know you are not all brainwashed.
It would be good to know you are free thinking men, and not machines of your government.
Someone else, maybe on another thread, said America (USA) shows remarkable restraint.
I would agree with that.
You have the military power to over run just about every other country.
Certainly in the Americas. But you don't.
Yet.
But will you when you need Canadian oil?
Will you when you need Canadian water?
Now you need water as much as oil. Many of your states are literally running dry. You might do without so much gas. But you must have water.
So...when is the sales pitch going to start to justify why Canada is evil and it is AMERICAN! duty to occupy us?
You have show restraint, thus far.
This is because most of your citizens have a sense of justice and fair play.
Most of you are not bad guys, and don't want to be bad guys.
And you hold the desires of conquest in check.
But it is scary for the smaller nations to see efforts to reprogram your citizens. Because then you might be less likely to feel that sense of justice.
So it would be reassuring to hear that you are not easily brainwashed, and you see what's going on.
If you proved that. I'd believe you. I very much want to believe that.
But really, in recent years we have seen how easily and quickly public opinion can be altered and reversed and reversed again.


(Rapist-Did you even read the las big post?)

 

[jessica_jad88]

Are you an anthro major? I am, so I'd love to help you out.

Here's what I pulled from dictionary.com:

free·dom

1.the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial. 2.exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc. 3.the power to determine action without restraint. 4.political or national independence. 5.personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery: a slave who bought his freedom. 6.exemption from the presence of anything specified (usually fol. by from): freedom from fear. 7.the absence of or release from ties, obligations, etc. 8.ease or facility of movement or action: to enjoy the freedom of living in the country. 9.frankness of manner or speech. 10.general exemption or immunity: freedom from taxation. 11.the absence of ceremony or reserve. 12.a liberty taken. 13.a particular immunity or privilege enjoyed, as by a city or corporation: freedom to levy taxes. 14.civil liberty, as opposed to subjection to an arbitrary or despotic government. 15.the right to enjoy all the privileges or special rights of citizenship, membership, etc., in a community or the like. 16.the right to frequent, enjoy, or use at will: to have the freedom of a friend's library. 17.Philosophy. the power to exercise choice and make decisions without constraint from within or without; autonomy; self-determination. Compare necessity (def. 7).


I believe when our country was being founded, many of the above definitions are what our forefathers had in mind - now defined in our Constitution and more explicitly in The Bill of Rights. Whether or not we are fully able to enjoy the freedoms that many have lost thier lives for is subject to opinion.

To answer your question, freedom to me means the ability to live and enjoy all it has to offer - speaking, happiness, how you choose to live your life, as long as it is not hindering those of others - without being repressed by another person or power, such as government.

 

[Spankbelly]

Slavery was one of many issues that polarized the US at the time but before the propagandists sunk their teeth into it was not so much a morality issue, it was really an issue of wether or not the states could determine individually to outlaw slavery or wether the federal government could impose it. The industrial revolution shifted the ballance of economic/political power northward as the economy became less agriculturally driven. Laws and policies for the nation as a whole became increasingly less relevant to the souths much different way of life. Population shifts from rural areas to urban industrial centers also made southern farmers more dependant on their slave labor.
Ofcourse the cause of the American Civil War (I know some that still call it the war of northern aggression) is onebof those complex events that can be dissected and debated ad nauseum - like the fall of the Roman Empire.

Whats really cool about this thread is that we are debating the subject and as such demonstrating part of what freedom is all about. In many a country some government good would be tracking us all down right now to smack as potential dissidents.

You are my favorite fish Semper.

 

[rmorse]

You have yet to make a point worth acknowledging rmorse.

And that, my friend, is the problem.

Every point made on this thread is worth acknowledging.

 

[Spankbelly]

And that, my friend, is the problem.

Every point made on this thread is worth acknowledging.

Umm, yes you are right.
Poor choice of words on my part.
I should have said "acknowledging as truthful fact" or something like that.
As for acknowledging you or your view at all, I think I have done that.
I think I have put much effort into trying to understand you, perhaps not successfully.
And I have put much effort into trying to explain my view to you, perhaps not successfully.
So I have acknowledged you. And your point of view.

 

[Spankbelly]

I'm not going to go as far as to say that he doesn't acknowledge points, I think he does. He does address issues that we bring up and he will research them diligently. It's just that in the delivery of counter-points, he presents things in a way as to belittle his opponents, and it just gets kind of annoying after a while, because I don't know whether I should address his points to our actual argument, or shoot down all of the stereotypes he furthers.

I truly am sorry that I seem to be offending you.
Except at times when I said something specifically directed at you.
At those times I think you earned it. Maybe not, but I think so.
But I think that sometimes you miss that I am talking about a nation or culture or population as a whole. And not just Yoshi.
Even when I think I am being pretty clear about that.

And I don't think there is anything rude with pointing out what wrongs have been done by any culture as a whole.
I don't think that is nearly as bad as the wrongs that have been done.
And I don't think it is wrong to call shameful acts shameful.
Or criminal acts criminal.
Or disrespect disrespect.
Or historical revisionism a disgusting lie.
I'm sorry if the truth hurts.
But it must be said.

It also annoys me that I have to spend many hours and many posts reexplaining simple concepts like culture/individual , but I do it.
For you.
That's love.

 

[Spankbelly]

Same thing in my mind.

I say "does not acknowledge points" because (it seems) he reads them, and instead of attempting to understand what we are saying, he looks for ways to belittle us. He searches out nuances in a way to manipulate what we are saying, so as to make us look arrogant/ignorant.

It just bothered me that I could not say anything without him understanding what I meant. Everything I said would be turned against me, and turned into something that is quite obvious not what I mean.

Umm...maybe you are wrong.
Or use poor choices of words so you seem wrong.
That's not my fault.