What does freedom mean to Americans?

[rmorse]

Well maybe this thread should have been titled what does freedom mean to U.S. citizens, but spank has a point. We do populate the Continent of North America, together. Even though he is not a U.S. citizen he is still an American. This is the problem with our policy today, we don't recognize the little guys, or the small buisness for example. We are too worried about the next almighty dollar and how to get something cheaper or easier. What we are doing today is totally opposite of what our country was founded on. I think back in the revolutionary war days if a "canadian" wanted to be an "american" I don't think it would have been a problem we would have been glad to have them. Why is it so different now, I'll leave that up to you guys to decide...

No, he has a somewhat of a flawed point.

Look, yes, I am well aware that you live in North America. Do not insult my intelligence (Spank) by suggesting that I need to do a geography lesson. Do NOT lump me together with everyone else, and assume I am ignorant. In fact, by your posts, it seems you are the ignorant one. You rant about how all Americans (AMERICANS) are pretty much idiots. Then throw in a little side comment saying, oh, in this context, I am not American. I am Canadian.

Grow up.

United States of America. I live there. I am American.

Canada. You live there. You are Canadian.

Got it? Good. Because that is the context in which we are talking on this thread. I am well aware of your argument. It is flawed. Take Asia for an example. If I am from Iraq, I am Asian. If I am from China, I am Asian. This is your argument, correct? Granted, those people are all from Asia, but how many times do you hear someone from Iraq, Iran, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. refer to themselves as Asian? Next to none. And why? Because in todays culture, Asian refers to people with distinct facial features that are generally found in China, Korea, Japan, Philippines, etc. Just as American refers to those found in the United States of AMERICA. Oh, and we are arrogant for having America in our name? It is what we represent. We are STATES, not countries, in America. What better name should we have? Our name stands for what we are. It is not meant to be taken as an insult.


Bottom line: In today's society, American refers to being a citizen of the United States of America. And if you are to incompetent to understand that, then there is no real point in having a conversation with you.

 

[hamato_yoshii]

Well maybe this thread should have been titled what does freedom mean to U.S. citizens, but spank has a point. We do populate the Continent of North America, together. Even though he is not a U.S. citizen he is still an American. This is the problem with our policy today, we don't recognize the little guys, or the small buisness for example. We are too worried about the next almighty dollar and how to get something cheaper or easier. What we are doing today is totally opposite of what our country was founded on. I think back in the revolutionary war days if a "canadian" wanted to be an "american" I don't think it would have been a problem we would have been glad to have them. Why is it so different now, I'll leave that up to you guys to decide...

I don't think there is a problem with that, and I don't know if anybody is really saying that. I'm simply responding to the fact that apparently we can't call ourselves Americans but he can call himself a Canadien. He's saying I'm ignorant for thinking there's a difference between the two, and then says that he can call himself a Canadien and we can't. Well, is there a difference between us or isn't there? You cant have it both ways.

 

[hamato_yoshii]

No, he has a somewhat of a flawed point.

Look, yes, I am well aware that you live in North America. Do not insult my intelligence (Spank) by suggesting that I need to do a geography lesson. Do NOT lump me together with everyone else, and assume I am ignorant. In fact, by your posts, it seems you are the ignorant one. You rant about how all Americans (AMERICANS) are pretty much idiots. Then throw in a little side comment saying, oh, in this context, I am not American. I am Canadian.

Grow up.

United States of America. I live there. I am American.

Canada. You live there. You are Canadian.

Got it? Good. Because that is the context in which we are talking on this thread. I am well aware of your argument. It is flawed. Take Asia for an example. If I am from Iraq, I am Asian. If I am from China, I am Asian. This is your argument, correct? Granted, those people are all from Asia, but how many times do you hear someone from Iraq, Iran, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. refer to themselves as Asian? Next to none. And why? Because in todays culture, Asian refers to people with distinct facial features that are generally found in China, Korea, Japan, Philippines, etc. Just as American refers to those found in the United States of AMERICA. Oh, and we are arrogant for having America in our name? It is what we represent. We are STATES, not countries, in America. What better name should we have? Our name stands for what we are. It is not meant to be taken as an insult.


Bottom line: In today's society, American refers to being a citizen of the United States of America. And if you are to incompetent to understand that, then there is no real point in having a conversation with you.

This came out before my post, but I share somewhat of the same sentiments regarding this issue.

 

[rmorse]

Way to prove his point...especially the third from last line

Way to show your ability to not comprehend sentences.

 

[scubasteve06]

I don't think there is a problem with that, and I don't know if anybody is really saying that. I'm simply responding to the fact that apparently we can't call ourselves Americans but he can call himself a Canadien. He's saying I'm ignorant for thinking there's a difference between the two, and then says that he can call himself a Canadien and we can't. Well, is there a difference between us or isn't there? You cant have it both ways.

He lives in the America's. Therefore he can all him self an american. He is a citizen of whatever province in canada he lives in therefore he is a canadien. We don't live in that province so therefore we can't be a canadien. Does that make sense now? I'm not disagreeing with you yoshii we agree on a lot of things, but I see this a little differently. When it comes to good politics you have to see both sides and not just one, that is the problem with politics nowadays no one cares about each other and its cut throat.

 

[King Edward]

Everyone hates the USA cause they go round the world, doing what they want, not caring about the little guys...really...when have things ever been different? The big boys rule the playground and as far as world powers go the US has be remarkably restrained. Anyone remember the mau-mau's? No, you dont, and why not? Well they started an insurgency against the British. We killed them all. The insurgency ended. We didnt send in troops to 'help' the poor people that hated us! We killed them. You think the US behaves badly, you wait and see what Chinas going to be like!!!! Everyone says the US is imperialist...lol. The Chinese are going to remind everyone what imperialism is, then everyone will love the 'american's' again, and their guns...

 

[King Edward]

I lived all over, including the USA and for me Freedom is firstly the freedom of speech. The ability to talk freely to covey ideas about where those in charge are getting it wrong and organise people to press for change.

This must be backed up by the right to bear arms, because the nature of power is such that those with it will always try to steal more!

But most importantly you must be free in your mind. You can be given all the freedoms in the world and still be a sheep if you do not have the inner strength to make your own mind up, or the bravery to stand up for what you believe. The quote earlier in this thread is great!

I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

My wife is from the DDR. Her father dissappeared in the '80s after he wrote an article in the local paper that critised the government. No trace has ever been found of him. Her mother was then blacklisted and had her job taken from her. She fell ill and was denied help at the hospital and died from what we would consider a minor liver complaint. People in the west forget how quickly we can lose all our freedoms.Countless people have died so we may live 'free'. We owe it to them not to give up a single liberty without a fight!

 

[Spankbelly]

Think you both need to chill. DeathPony, I think your paper has already been written. Just print out this thread. This is what freedom in America allows, an open discussion about said freedoms. Both positive and negative comments are made without anyone disappearing in the middle of the night, never to be seen again.

Historically one of the great things about you guys is that you don't take crap from anyone, including your own government.
Canadians like to ***** and moan, but you almost never see them band together and protest on the steps of parliament. Not in any significant numbers anyway.
Being a smaller fish in the pond (in terms of economics) Canada has rightly been leery of your nation.
But I think the biggest thing I fear about USA right now is that the people are laying down and letting their rights be eroded.
Our countries are so linked that it is only a matter of time before this bleeds across the boarder. And it is.
We other Americans may not like to admit it...but it is true that in many ways you have been the leader in rights and freedoms. (not always)
But what is going on there now?
No cause searches. Holding "suspected" terrorists indefinitely without charge. No warrant wire taps. Being labeled an Enemy of the State with no rights, though no evidence has been presented. Requiring these prisoners to prove their innocence rather than requiring the State to prove their guilt. And plans to monitor and censor the internet.
If things continue it will not be long before we can't have these discussions without being monitored and dragged off to the Gulag.
I encourage you all to do that thing you do. Go pick a fight with somebody. Go stand up. Go be AMERICAN! and save the world.
Because salvaging your own economy is salvaging all our economies.
Ensuring your rights and freedoms is ensuring our rights and freedoms.
Yes we like to knock the USA for every misstep. But the truth is that we know we are better off having you around.
Now, as much as ever, is the time for you to be that "Guiding Light of Freedom" you so often claim to be.
Not many will admit it, but we are counting on you.
Don't let us down.

 

[Spankbelly]

In response to the first bold area. I responded the way I did to your original post, because I took it as a somewhat lighthearted comment made by you. I assumed that no real educated person would actually give that as an honest answer as to what they believed freedom was. So, I responded in a lighthearted fashion. But, as soon as you saw that there was a comment made in response to yours, you got your panties in a bunch and got upset. You were the one who lost your sensibilities and started responding as if I insulted you mother. To me it sounds like a classic case, your that one guy who loves to dish it out to other people and then can't take it when someone gives you a little taste of your own medicine.

Second bold area. These are assumptions made by you. My first post was a lighthearted one, in response to yours. But, if your going to take the content in that post as an indication of my exact feelings about freedom, and the world around me, then I'm forced to do it with yours. So, I can surmise from your first post that you have a sad, pessimistic, and unfortunate short-sided look at freedom. And, if that's really all you think freedom is, then you should find a local Veteran near you and have them explain to you what freedom really is.

Third bold area. I believe that this exact quote can be properly applied to your first post. The post that started this mess. You “Would like to be clever and funny but don’t know how. So I’ll just lay down an insult.”

Fourth bold part. If you read what the words actually mean, you would see that I never said you were "backing away..." all I simply did is show how you jumped down the throat of that one guy to tell him that he isn't the only american around, and that you were one, and so are south Americans and so on, but you still are allowing yourself to be called a Canadien. Which is fine, I think you are. But you are pushing us into this corner you have made in regards to names, I mean what would you have us call ourselves, The country which happens to lie between Canada and Mexico? We are Americans, just like you are a Canadien, and people from Mexico are Mexicans. Just because there are others who live in North or South America doesn't make us something else.

Last bold area. You were the one who started with your weak attempt at shooting a little humorous dig at Americans. Then when someone came back and showed you that maybe your not the only one who can use humor (imagine that, not just you!) you got all upset and started replying to my "insults". I think you just "like to argue" (I can't remember where I heard that) and someone hurt your little feelings and you responded with a backlash. Save your precious "arguing" for the mirror and your tape recorder.

Hey that's much better!
Actual thoughts organized into cohesive sentences.
I still do not agree with you. And most likely you will never agree with me.
But at least we can have a conversation and understand why we think what we do. Who knows? I might be totally wrong.
I need to go do some things first. Then I'm going to get a refill on my Double Gulp and a fresh pack of smokes so I can write a proper response to this.
I will do my best to remain calm and rational if you do the same.
Maybe we can educate each other.

Peace out Dude.

 

[Spankbelly]

I don't think there is a problem with that, and I don't know if anybody is really saying that. I'm simply responding to the fact that apparently we can't call ourselves Americans but he can call himself a Canadien. He's saying I'm ignorant for thinking there's a difference between the two, and then says that he can call himself a Canadien and we can't. Well, is there a difference between us or isn't there? You cant have it both ways.

Scubasteve answered this properly.

I will add that ignorant is not an insult. Ignorant does not mean stupid. Ignorant means there is a matter of fact that you have not yet been educated on. Ignorant does not mean you have a learning disability or that there is anything dysfunctional about your brain.
I don't remember if I actually called you ignorant. Maybe I did. But that's ok because in this matter you are ignorant. Again, that is not an insult. I am only saying there are sides to this issue that have not been shown to you in a way that you can understand. As "there are no bad students, only bad teachers" I will try to do better.
And no, I am not saying I am smarter or above you or even qualified to teach you anything. We are equal.
I am just a guy on the other side of the fence.
I am sure there are many things you can teach me. I am sure there are many areas in which I am ignorant.
That is why I like having debates like this. I like hearing ideas that are not my own. Sometimes I learn something new. Sometimes I teach something.
But the best thing is that in going through the exorcise of explaining a point of view, we have to justify our position. In this way we are forced to think about not only what we believe, but why we believe it.
Sometimes I discover something that I always assumed was absolute fact turns out to be nonsense when examined logically.

I did insult your intelligence with the dictionary and map comments, and maybe other things.
I officially apologize for that. I do not think you are a dumb dumb.
(but it is true, look it up)
So no more insults. (I will try anyway) Otherwise we'll just be taking cheap shots and not learn anything.

BTW just so everyone knows, it is not canadien. It is Canadian. Canad i an.
With a big fat C and no e.
As Canadian English is more closely related to European U.K. English than U.S. English is, there are slight differences in some words. Like color/colour.
Canadian is not one of them.
Another nit pick, I know. It's not a big deal.
But when we are talking about respect between nations (or lack of)...well you should know how to spell the name of your next door neighbor.


Yes a citizen of the USA can call himself an American. So can a Canadian. And a Mexican.
We do not object to you grouping yourself in with us. Because you are in the same group as us. We are of the same family. We are linked in more ways than just geography.
Some of us are more distant cousins than others. Some of us are close brothers.
The feathers get ruffled not when you include yourself...only when you exclude all others.
When you say only you are American. When you say only you have value.
This is only slightly insulting to Canadians. Because the two of us are so closely linked by economy, culture and politics that we are very nearly one.
There are differences between Canada and the USA. But not many. The only real issue that divides us is a line on a map.

Take a moment and think about what USA means to the rest of America.
Not just in a bad way. Not in a scary big dog eating little dog way.
In the ways that you are so (rightly) proud of.
USA means freedom. USA means human rights. USA means justice. USA means safety. USA means education. USA means opportunity. USA means a chance for a future.
Do be proud of that. Raise your flag high for all to see.
But you must understand that they do see it.
Understand both sides when you say "We are #1!" "We have the best country in the world!" "Everyone wants to be like us!"
Understand that they do want to be like you.
They may or may not want to be U.S. citizens. But they certainly do strive to follow your example in their own country.
Yes you (we together, brother) had to fight for the freedoms you now have.
They are continuing to struggle. In an environment that is as bad as or worse than anything the USA went through.
They are beat down by corrupt governments that treat their own citizens as enemies.

(USA and Canada had the advantage of being backed by colonizing armies to murder the indigenous population, USA had the advantage of slavery to build its economy, Canada used the Chinese as pseudo slaves)

But while they are beaten they look up and see your flag. They are reminded that life does not have to be this way. And they have the strength to scrape through on more day. To rally and protest one more time. To work one more day in sweat shops for slave wages.
They are as proud of you as you are. You are the successful big brother. You are the one who put himself through University and made it out of the ghetto.

So it is no insult to say you are American.
Welcome to the family brother.
But to say ONLY you are American, ONLY you matter, ONLY you have value, ONLY your voice will be heard...
To smack down nations that regard you so highly, is shameful and disgusting.
Every time you do that more glitter falls away from your flag.
And it is worrisome to those who cannot defend themselves from your undeniable power.