Where do you get your breeders?

[peathenster]

Sry peath, Alot of that was uncomprehendable

which part(s)? I can try again.

but what im getting from it is your saying the same thing i am.

not really....

 

[Snowflake311]

Inbreeding is not good whatever organism it is. It is best to advoid it. I like the idea of getting one male from one place and a group of females from another.

But inbreeding happens all the in the hobby so whatever.

 

[dogofwar]

...because different retailers don't get their fish from the same wholesalers and/or farms??? Unless you're dealing with reputable folks who can verify the provenance of fish to a particular collection location, you're kidding yourself that you're doing more harm than good by introducing "new" blood into the mix.

Obvious defects should be a focus gor culling...but we also have to recognize that this only goes so far in replicating natural selection. Selecting the biggest, brightest longest finned individuals tends to suit the values of aquarists...but could also (in nature) suit the needs of birds trying to make an easy meal out of a fish.

It doesn't make much sense to be a big super red firemouth in a place with clear water and a sandy substrate. And mother nature has selected accordingly in those populations.

Matt

Inbreeding is not good whatever organism it is. It is best to advoid it. I like the idea of getting one male from one place and a group of females from another.

But inbreeding happens all the in the hobby so whatever.

 

[moonstruckmuse]

I'd also buy my fish from different sources or try to trace somewhat even farmed fish, but honestly... unusual color morphs (phenotypes) often are a result from inbreeding (thanks for one of the nicer descriptions of basic genetics, peathenster). Those fish may be compromised in a number of ways, but to really fix and establish that line, it happens.
So long as people are buying THAT specfic strain for the look rather than its longevity or behavior, I don't see anything wrong with it. Isn't that basically what's happened with EBJD? Pretty fish, almost certainly would get eaten in the wild, not easy to raise because of poor health, but kept going because people like the look more than those other factors?

Personally, I like my fish as natural as they can get. But that's my opinion.

 

[dogofwar]

I think that's the heart of a lot of confusion: people assume that "wild" means bigger and more colorful when line-breeding (which can involve inbreeding) is the way to develop aesthetically brilliant fish. And, of course, skilled line-breeding involves more than randomly crossing fish.

Matt

I'd also buy my fish from different sources or try to trace somewhat even farmed fish, but honestly... unusual color morphs (phenotypes) often are a result from inbreeding (thanks for one of the nicer descriptions of basic genetics, peathenster). Those fish may be compromised in a number of ways, but to really fix and establish that line, it happens.
So long as people are buying THAT specfic strain for the look rather than its longevity or behavior, I don't see anything wrong with it. Isn't that basically what's happened with EBJD? Pretty fish, almost certainly would get eaten in the wild, not easy to raise because of poor health, but kept going because people like the look more than those other factors?

Personally, I like my fish as natural as they can get. But that's my opinion.

 

[FishingOut]

I think that's the heart of a lot of confusion: people assume that "wild" means bigger and more colorful when line-breeding (which can involve inbreeding) is the way to develop aesthetically brilliant fish. And, of course, skilled line-breeding involves more than randomly crossing fish.

Matt

There is not too much line-breeding happening in the U.S.. Mainly used for Fh's anyway. Its impossible to replicate nature, so most wild fish are going to be bigger, more colorful, more aggressive, and stronger than fry of the same parants raised in tanks. Lessens the chance of inbred as well.
I really want to start breeding Fh, but dont have the resources available yet so i guess i will start smaller

 

[dogofwar]

There's no shortage of line breeding happening in the US: many of the most popular fish available from farms are line bred. Red oscars? Line bred. Fancy livebearers? Hybrids and/or line bred. Long finned and balloon rams? line bred. Pink convicts? Line bred. German Red Peacocks? Line bred (or hybrids, depending on your definition), Fancy bettas, guppies, pink kissers, dwarf gouramis, fancy goldfish, koi, etc, etc.... all line-bred....and different (better?!) than in nature.

It is also incorrect that wild fish are bigger, stronger, more colorful and more aggressive than their captive counterparts. Because captive fish can be fed bountiful food and given ideal conditions from day 1, many fish in captivity are larger than in the wild. Line breeding for aggression can result in fish that are insanely aggressive. For example, plakat (fighting) bettas are bred to be larger and more aggressive than fish in the wild. That's why they're line bred. German red and other fancy peacocks were selectively bred to have more red color than wild-type fish. Fish in captivity also tend to live a lot longer than fish in the wild (or collected from the wild) because they don't have to contend with wild predators (birds, etc.) and parasites. Wild fish go through some incredible stress in being collected and domesticated...

Matt

There is not too much line-breeding happening in the U.S.. Mainly used for Fh's anyway. Its impossible to replicate nature, so most wild fish are going to be bigger, more colorful, more aggressive, and stronger than fry of the same parants raised in tanks. Lessens the chance of inbred as well.
I really want to start breeding Fh, but dont have the resources available yet so i guess i will start smaller

 

[FishingOut]

This line breeding your speaking of is all aesthetically pleasing. These are the fish that dont live over 6months. These are the fish america crams into a small vat of water. Nature is harsh, and wouldnt produce such weak specimens. This certainly is not "better" than nature.

There is not an mrk'er who has even 1% of the biological and chemical filtration of the rio grande and other waterways. I dont know where you got the fact the aquarium fish get bigger because of the foods they eat. Thats incorrect. Wild fish have a much more natural selection of foods, they live longer, and have more room to grow. Contending makes an animal stronger in the wild. Contending in a tank leads to quick death.
Linebreeding/ Inbreeding is terrible. Why else would they HAVE to outcross? to reduce genetic abnormalities.

 

[dogofwar]

The reason that people line breed fish is to make them more appealing to aquarists than wild fish. This often takes the form of enhanced color, longer fins, albinism and other traits. Does this make the fish more viable in the wild? Of course not. Does it make them more likely to be bought in an aquarium store? You betcha...

Are wild guppies larger or smaller, more or less colorful than (line bred) fancy ones?

How about bettas? How many people keep the small, brownish wild ones...and how many keep the larger, more colorful fancy ones?

How about carp? Which are more colorful: wild carp or fancy koi?

That's line breeding...

Matt

 

[peathenster]

This line breeding your speaking of is all aesthetically pleasing.....

Please don't take this the wrong way and I really don't want to come across as rude, but the key to make an argument is not just to state the things you believe over and over again, but to back them up with logic and facts.

It would be much more convincing if you can clarify the following points you made (all of your last post actually):

These are the fish that dont live over 6months.

Which ones? What percentage of the individuals of which species?

These are the fish america crams into a small vat of water. Nature is harsh, and wouldnt produce such weak specimens. This certainly is not "better" than nature.

How is "harsh" defined? One might argue that in some aspects life in a "small vat" is even tougher. You indicated yourself (below) that the water quality is better in nature...

For example, U. fernandezyepezi and P. altum are just fine in "nature", but few people can keep them happy in tanks. Speaking of which, tank bred U. fernandezyepezi are much easier to keep (so I was told) - aren't they "stronger" in this perspective?

There is not an mrk'er who has even 1% of the biological and chemical filtration of the rio grande and other waterways.

How much filteration is there in the wild for, say, every 300 gallons of water? How much higher is that than, say, an FX5?

And what about some of the discus people who do 75% water changes daily with drinkable water....still not within 1% of nature?

I dont know where you got the fact the aquarium fish get bigger because of the foods they eat. Thats incorrect. Wild fish have a much more natural selection of foods, they live longer, and have more room to grow. Contending makes an animal stronger in the wild. Contending in a tank leads to quick death.

Per Felipe's account, for example, some Australoheros species he caught and kept in capitivity grew much bigger that he had never seen in the wild. He attributed it to the abundance of food and lack of preditors.

Linebreeding/ Inbreeding is terrible. Why else would they HAVE to outcross? to reduce genetic abnormalities.

Matt's point is that how you breed fish depends on what you want to breed.

So what's your goal in breeding fish?