this is not a cycling question, but rather a question of how exactly the bacteria finds its way into our tanks. I understand that you need ammonia to feed the bacteria, but how is it that we can use tap water, which is treated with chlorine, and chlorine kills the bacteria, and yet when we treat the water with a conditioner and remove the chlorine, add some ammonia, and like magic, the bacteria appears. This would make me believe that it is an airborne bacteria or a bacteria that is present in more than just water. Any scientific explanation would be much appreciated. I think more study is needed in this aspect of fish keeping. If we could better understand the bacteria that ultimately makes it possible to keep fish, I think we could come up with more effective ways of making it thrive in our tanks
Where does nitrifying bacteria come from?
- Thread starter swede
- Start date
Great question!
There are a great number of species of bacteria that can serve our tanks as "Beneficial Bacteria" and a good number of them are commonly found all over in our natural environment.
The most common and ample location to find them is in moist soil. It is likely that your garden in the back yard has MUCH more "Beneficial Bacteria" than your fish tank does.
Many forms of bacteria can also go into an inert stage. In this stage they can exist 'encrusted' on the side of a rock used in a tank long ago, and then once introduced into an environment with the right conditions can "reawaken" and go back to work.
I can't answer exactly what the most common pathway for them to ender a brand new set up literally is... but the short answer is bacteria is everywhere... and doesn't take long to get into a newly set up aquarium...
Futher detail...
Bacteria doesn't "reproduce"... it grows, at it's maximum size, splits in half creating two identical yet completely individual organisms... then each of them grows, then splits, then grows then splits...
Therefore a single bacterium can be introduced to a fertile environment, double, and double, and double... and colonize the entire system.
In a fertile environment with "unlimited" resources (water, oxygen & food)... bacteria will never die. It is not like an animal that is born, grows uo, grows old and dies... it just grows and splits, grows and splits...
Yet in our aquariums, bacterium die off all of the time, due to limited resources... certain areas of the tank that have more resources allow bacteria in that area to thrive/increase, which reduces the available resources in that area, causing the colony in tha tarea to decrease in size, allowing that area to again become rich in resources, etc, etc, over and over...
It takes a single bacterium 4~6 hours to go from newly formed to splitting... Therefore it takes a mature colony 4~6 hours to completely double in size.
When we start as new aquarium, and get our first lonely bacterium to land in the tank... 5 hours later we have two, well two can't do much, 5 hours later 4, 5 hours later 8, then 16... due to this nature of "doubling" it takes a while to get the ball (the cycle) rolling, but once it's mature... and we, for instance, remove a sponge and rinse it under the tap killing a large quantity of bacteria... as long as we don't kill more than 50% of the bacteria from our overall system, it will replace whateever we removed in 5 hours...
I completely agree there are a lot of myths, misunderstandings and uneducated assumptions about the bacteria in our systems. I highly encourage everyone to go out and learn as much as they can and come back to share what they've learned...
...and I also encourage those who are not willing to educate themselves to ease back on the flow or suggestions and leave that to those of us who are trying to learn...
Great topic Swede... I hope some interesting links are to come...
There are a great number of species of bacteria that can serve our tanks as "Beneficial Bacteria" and a good number of them are commonly found all over in our natural environment.
The most common and ample location to find them is in moist soil. It is likely that your garden in the back yard has MUCH more "Beneficial Bacteria" than your fish tank does.
Many forms of bacteria can also go into an inert stage. In this stage they can exist 'encrusted' on the side of a rock used in a tank long ago, and then once introduced into an environment with the right conditions can "reawaken" and go back to work.
I can't answer exactly what the most common pathway for them to ender a brand new set up literally is... but the short answer is bacteria is everywhere... and doesn't take long to get into a newly set up aquarium...
Futher detail...
Bacteria doesn't "reproduce"... it grows, at it's maximum size, splits in half creating two identical yet completely individual organisms... then each of them grows, then splits, then grows then splits...
Therefore a single bacterium can be introduced to a fertile environment, double, and double, and double... and colonize the entire system.
In a fertile environment with "unlimited" resources (water, oxygen & food)... bacteria will never die. It is not like an animal that is born, grows uo, grows old and dies... it just grows and splits, grows and splits...
Yet in our aquariums, bacterium die off all of the time, due to limited resources... certain areas of the tank that have more resources allow bacteria in that area to thrive/increase, which reduces the available resources in that area, causing the colony in tha tarea to decrease in size, allowing that area to again become rich in resources, etc, etc, over and over...
It takes a single bacterium 4~6 hours to go from newly formed to splitting... Therefore it takes a mature colony 4~6 hours to completely double in size.
When we start as new aquarium, and get our first lonely bacterium to land in the tank... 5 hours later we have two, well two can't do much, 5 hours later 4, 5 hours later 8, then 16... due to this nature of "doubling" it takes a while to get the ball (the cycle) rolling, but once it's mature... and we, for instance, remove a sponge and rinse it under the tap killing a large quantity of bacteria... as long as we don't kill more than 50% of the bacteria from our overall system, it will replace whateever we removed in 5 hours...
I completely agree there are a lot of myths, misunderstandings and uneducated assumptions about the bacteria in our systems. I highly encourage everyone to go out and learn as much as they can and come back to share what they've learned...
...and I also encourage those who are not willing to educate themselves to ease back on the flow or suggestions and leave that to those of us who are trying to learn...
Great topic Swede... I hope some interesting links are to come...
I agree w/ NC... 'cept Bacteria do "reproduce" asexual reproduction.. other then the scientific blip. Bacteria is everywhere.. It'de be far harder to keep bacteria out of a system then to introduce it in.
Which is partically why I'm so fond of marineland systems and wet/dry systems. they have a large emphasis on bacterial colony growth and stabalization. I would love to see more stabalized products on the market of BB introduction and strains of bacteria that are particularly hardy/beneficial. They may already be out there and researched ect. but main streamed. and more education in general to the fish keeping industry as to the importance of these microscopic needs of the aquarium.
Which is partically why I'm so fond of marineland systems and wet/dry systems. they have a large emphasis on bacterial colony growth and stabalization. I would love to see more stabalized products on the market of BB introduction and strains of bacteria that are particularly hardy/beneficial. They may already be out there and researched ect. but main streamed. and more education in general to the fish keeping industry as to the importance of these microscopic needs of the aquarium.
I really wish they had a test kit to test for BB so you could really see how effective your system is at producing enough BB for your bioload. This would aleviate a lot of assumption. Sure, we can test for ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, and such but we cannot tell how far from having these appear we are. There is no way to have a ratio of ammonia to BB. And yes I realize that bacteria is everywhere, however not all bacteria acts as BB. I find it hard to believe that bacteria can live forever given enough food, oxygen and water.... wouldn't this mean that as long as a tank has enough oxygen pumped into it and enough media, you could never really overload the bioload? I'm really trying to dig deeper into this. I wish I had the time and resources to test these things out and develop a test for the specific bacteria that is BB. I know it could be done, but i would like to develop a test that could be affordable enough that a serious fishkeeper could afford to buy one.
The best way to test for the presence of ammonia- and nitrite-reducing bacteria is to add some ammonia or nitrite and see what happens. There are many many species of bacteria that do these things, so even a sort of "home PCR" test wouldn't work. But as has been said, these particular bacteria are extremely abundant and ubiquitous. Unless your tank is hermetically sealed or is too toxic to support normal life, it has nitrogen-feeding bacteria. Now, the numbers in which they are present is another thing altogether.
You certainly can overload your tank's bacterial complement by too rapidly increasing the amount of food (nitrogenous waste) available. In the situation you describe (superabundance of attachment sites and oxgen), the limiting factor in the bacteria's population size is the amount of food available. If you suddenly increase the availability of food (by increasing the bioload) the bacterial population will grow, but not necessarily fast enough to prevent unhealthy buildup of nitrogenous waste before they can eat it.
You certainly can overload your tank's bacterial complement by too rapidly increasing the amount of food (nitrogenous waste) available. In the situation you describe (superabundance of attachment sites and oxgen), the limiting factor in the bacteria's population size is the amount of food available. If you suddenly increase the availability of food (by increasing the bioload) the bacterial population will grow, but not necessarily fast enough to prevent unhealthy buildup of nitrogenous waste before they can eat it.
MonsterMinis;3382067; said:
There are a few forms of asexual reproduction and yes bacteria do reproduce per a form of asexual reproduction
But as I explained when I made that statement, the grow, split evenly, grow, split evenly, grow and never grow old or die of old age
Other forms of Asexual reproduction are self impregnating or small parts break off a larger mature organism and the larger mature organism continues as a large mature organism most organisms that reproduce this way will die of old age
Yes it is all reproduction but explaining the details is a lot more beneficial to the deeper understanding than slapping the title asexual reproduction on it
swede;3382194; said:
It is true that most bacteria will never grow old or die of old age They can only die from a lack of resources
The colony will continue to expand provided they have access to their (few) necessities. Space to live, food (ammonia), water and oxygen are the basic requirements of the bacteria we are dealing with.
Provided proper water movement theoretically you can add ammonia to a tank constantly, slowly increasing the rate, and the colony will continue to increase until it ran out of one of its needed resources
Precautions would need to be taken to not saturate the system with food (ammonia) all at once as high concentrations will be toxic to the bacteria itself.
I would expect oxygen depletion would be the most likely strangling if a typical aquarium with no fish were to have a constantly (slowly) increasing ammonia supply
That was enlightening and interesting, I was wondering the same thing.
It would take a really long time to build up a good amount from 1 bacterium. But that does mean that in a mature tank, you can add a lot of fish at once as long as the bioload doesn't double... The extra ammonia would be eaten in 4 or so hours. Well, one would think...
Just for the record, studies show that aquatic plants prefer absorbing ammonia rather than nitrate for a source of nitrogen.
It would take a really long time to build up a good amount from 1 bacterium. But that does mean that in a mature tank, you can add a lot of fish at once as long as the bioload doesn't double... The extra ammonia would be eaten in 4 or so hours. Well, one would think...
Just for the record, studies show that aquatic plants prefer absorbing ammonia rather than nitrate for a source of nitrogen.
4-6 hours is optimistic under PERFECT conditions.
http://www.nfkc.info/nfkconliine/What%20is%20the%20Nitrogen%20cycle.htm
"Under optimal conditions, Nitrosomonas may double every 7 hours and Nitrobacter every 13 hours. More realistically, they will double every 15-20 hours."
"The optimum pH range for Nitrosomonas is between 7.8-8.0.
The optimum pH range for Nitrobacter is between 7.7-8.2
Nitrosomonas growth is inhibited at a pH of 6.5. All nitrification is inhibited if the pH drops to 6.0 or less. Care must be taken to monitor ammonia if the pH begins to drop close to 6.5. At this pH almost all of the ammonia present in the water will be in the mildly toxic, ionized NH3+ state."
"The temperature for optimum growth of nitrifying bacteria is between 77-86° F (25-30° C).
Growth rate is decreased by 50% at 64° F (18° C).
Growth rate is decreased by 75% at 46-50° F.
No activity will occur at 39° F (4° C)
Nitrifying bacteria will die at 32° F (0° C).
Nitrifying bacteria will die at 120° F (49° C)"
Granted, he cites no sources for any of this. He sounds like he knows what he's talking about though.
http://www.nfkc.info/nfkconliine/What%20is%20the%20Nitrogen%20cycle.htm
"Under optimal conditions, Nitrosomonas may double every 7 hours and Nitrobacter every 13 hours. More realistically, they will double every 15-20 hours."
"The optimum pH range for Nitrosomonas is between 7.8-8.0.
The optimum pH range for Nitrobacter is between 7.7-8.2
Nitrosomonas growth is inhibited at a pH of 6.5. All nitrification is inhibited if the pH drops to 6.0 or less. Care must be taken to monitor ammonia if the pH begins to drop close to 6.5. At this pH almost all of the ammonia present in the water will be in the mildly toxic, ionized NH3+ state."
"The temperature for optimum growth of nitrifying bacteria is between 77-86° F (25-30° C).
Growth rate is decreased by 50% at 64° F (18° C).
Growth rate is decreased by 75% at 46-50° F.
No activity will occur at 39° F (4° C)
Nitrifying bacteria will die at 32° F (0° C).
Nitrifying bacteria will die at 120° F (49° C)"
Granted, he cites no sources for any of this. He sounds like he knows what he's talking about though.