Why are these being sold????

[Ogertron3000]

So we are back on the topic of bans? I grew up in an area of Canada/US where 60 yrs ago carp and koi had damaged the ecosystem to almost a point of no return. So parts of AU have deemed them noxious, again due to the morons of the world who feel it's ok to let aquarium fish go free into natural waterways. Bans are never going to be perfect, but it beats sticking ones head into the sand and pretending that there isn't a problem. Invasive species threaten wild ecosystems by outcompeting native fish and destroying natural habitat, what part of that don't people understand? No one wants the Govt to intervene, but what other option is available when people can't use common sense, and follow guidelines? Toss a 1K fine onto someone's ass and most folks start to think twice.

I think the fine is $50000 for importing banned animals. not sure what it is for having one but it will be more than $1000 and result in the animal being destroyed.

Theres two discussions on the topic of bans.

1) The discussion of fish that shouldnt be kept due to their size.


2) invasive species. I think most of us agree its necessary. Though Ogertron3000 provided a pretty good example on why they are problematic.
Guy buys a koi in an area they are not banned all's good in the hood.... he moves to victoria and unknowingly is keeping a banned fish. Maybe theres legal consequences.

I think common sense can also be applied to understanding that two different conversations are taking place

That's right, trying to make an example of a ban that doesn't work. A 3 hour drive to buy a banned fish from another state isn't really effective. In this case the border between the states is a river so if you were stupid enough to let a koi go in it then as long as the koi swims north not South It wouldn't enter forbidden territory!

I agree with the above, and will give a couple of examples (although not all aquarium related).
I grew up on the shores of Lke Michigan.
When I was a kid, there were smelt, sculpin, bass, walleye and many other species in the near shore areas.
Now, just about the only thing you find are Asian Gobies, and zebra/Quagga mussels, probably from the bilge of international ships.
The perch fishing industry that was once booming, has totally collapsed, and the lake is heading toward a mono-culture system, at least near shore.
Another example
In the 1960s a Dr wanted a pond on the shore of Lake Gatun Panama, near where I live now, with Peacock bass.
During the rainy season those 6 P-bass (of course) escaped, now.....
most of the endemic cichlids are gone from the lake, eaten by the P-bass.
All it takes are a couple to ruin the entire system.

Common carp have destroyed native populations of fish in all rivers here. They are a huge problem that I don't think,can be solved It's too cold in winter for cichlids or plecos to survive here but up north I can only imagine what some convicts released into a lake could do.Also Indian mynah birds, rabbits, cane toads and many more have made an impact so do agree bans are necessary to avoid situations like you describe. I don't like the inconsistency when it comes to aquarium fish but obviously have a vested interest in it. It seems strange I can buy a reed devil but not Trimacs or comet goldfish but not koi etc.

 

[Ogertron3000]

So we are back on the topic of bans? I grew up in an area of Canada/US where 60 yrs ago carp and koi had damaged the ecosystem to almost a point of no return. So parts of AU have deemed them noxious, again due to the morons of the world who feel it's ok to let aquarium fish go free into natural waterways. Bans are never going to be perfect, but it beats sticking ones head into the sand and pretending that there isn't a problem. Invasive species threaten wild ecosystems by outcompeting native fish and destroying natural habitat, what part of that don't people understand? No one wants the Govt to intervene, but what other option is available when people can't use common sense, and follow guidelines? Toss a 1K fine onto someone's ass and most folks start to think twice.

I think the fine is $50000 for importing banned animals. not sure what it is for having one but it will be more than $1000 and result in the animal being destroyed.

Theres two discussions on the topic of bans.

1) The discussion of fish that shouldnt be kept due to their size.


2) invasive species. I think most of us agree its necessary. Though Ogertron3000 provided a pretty good example on why they are problematic.
Guy buys a koi in an area they are not banned all's good in the hood.... he moves to victoria and unknowingly is keeping a banned fish. Maybe theres legal consequences.

I think common sense can also be applied to understanding that two different conversations are taking place

That's right, trying to make an example of a ban that doesn't work. A 3 hour drive to buy a banned fish from another state isn't really effective. In this case the border between the states is a river so if you were stupid enough to let a koi go in it then as long as the koi swims north not South It wouldn't enter forbidden territory!

I agree with the above, and will give a couple of examples (although not all aquarium related).
I grew up on the shores of Lke Michigan.
When I was a kid, there were smelt, sculpin, bass, walleye and many other species in the near shore areas.
Now, just about the only thing you find are Asian Gobies, and zebra/Quagga mussels, probably from the bilge of international ships.
The perch fishing industry that was once booming, has totally collapsed, and the lake is heading toward a mono-culture system, at least near shore.
Another example
In the 1960s a Dr wanted a pond on the shore of Lake Gatun Panama, near where I live now, with Peacock bass.
During the rainy season those 6 P-bass (of course) escaped, now.....
most of the endemic cichlids are gone from the lake, eaten by the P-bass.
All it takes are a couple to ruin the entire system.

Common carp have destroyed native populations of fish in all rivers here. They are a huge problem that I don't think,can be solved It's too cold in winter for cichlids or plecos to survive here but up north I can only imagine what some convicts released into a lake could do.Also Indian mynah birds, rabbits, cane toads and many more have made an impact so do agree bans are necessary to avoid situations like you describe. I don't like the inconsistency when it comes to aquarium fish but obviously have a vested interest in it. It seems strange I can buy a reed devil but not Trimacs or comet goldfish but not koi etc.

 

[Ogertron3000]

Probably less than 1%of people in the hobby .
I think that 1% should be able to order such fish from source. I don't think such fish should be mass sold in lfs. If bans reduce cruelty and save ecosystems, I'm not selfish enough to not be all for it.
Bring onthe bans, I can keep something else.

It would be ideal if the 1% who could keep them had to order them but how would the rule be enforced?
The issue with the bans such as the carp problem here is that the ban doesn't normally come into effect until the problem is already there so it's generally too late. Also banning a subspecies such as koi but not all carp/goldfish variants doesn't make much sense.
Saying that , with all our restrictions we have a nice range of fish and it would take a long time until you could keep them all and get so bored with them that you really needed to get something else. But as for "bring on the ban", be careful what you wish for because it might come true.....

 

[jaws7777]

So how does someone order a banned fish ?
How do the rapps and wet spots of the world verify that i have a tank large enough ?

In the internet age anyone can buy anything. Petsmart doesnt carry RTC's but i can spend 5 min on google and have it shipped overnight.

 

[Stanzzzz7]

It would be ideal if the 1% who could keep them had to order them but how would the rule be enforced?

Fines I guess, like most bans. Any lfs stocking such animals could be issued a fine.
To be honest I have never in all my years keeping fish, never seen an aripaima for sale here in the UK.
I do often see tank fulls of pangasius catfish. These fish grow huge, live in shoals and require a very high oxygen content. They are sold commonly alongside the typical guppies, tetras angel fish and so forth. I'm willing to bet none of the pangasius sold ever make it to maturity, are ever kept in large shoals in tanks big enough for them to ever have a remotely comfortable existence.
I would not be willing to make the same bet for the guppies, tetras and Angel fish.
All bans will have grey areas and won't always be perfect or please everyone. Common sense tells us that by and large, certain fish like the pangasius have a short crappy existence compared to lots of the more modest sized species. I know all fish can meet a crappy end due to less caring keepers but they stand a hell of a better chance than a tank full of arapaima at a local fish store.

 

[Stanzzzz7]

So how does someone order a banned fish ?
How do the rapps and wet spots of the world verify that i have a tank large enough ?

In the internet age anyone can buy anything. Petsmart doesnt carry RTC's but i can spend 5 min on google and have it shipped overnight.

I think it would be pretty pointless spending extra money shipping and ordering in a certain fish just to let it die premature in a tiny tank.
True enthusiastic keepers with big enough tanks are more likely to pay the extra bucks than the average Joe with a 75 gallon.

 

[jaws7777]

I think it would be pretty pointless spending extra money shipping and ordering in a certain fish just to let it die premature in a tiny tank.
True enthusiastic keepers with big enough tanks are more likely to pay the extra bucks than the average Joe with a 75 gallon.

Not if joe with a 75 gal wants the rtc. I drive 2 hrs each way to the closest airport to pick up fish. Id gladly pay the increase fee to have it delivered door to door. If someone wants something a shipping fee is meaningless to them

 

[jaws7777]

Id bet my paycheck that more guppies, beta's and common community fish die slow and miserable deaths at the hands of inexperienced hobbyists than pangasius cats. We arent banning them

 

[Stanzzzz7]

Not if joe with a 75 gal wants the rtc. I drive 2 hrs each way to the closest airport to pick up fish. Id gladly pay the increase fee to have it delivered door to door. If someone wants something a shipping fee is meaningless to them

I disagree. Higher prices for certain species of extra specialist care would put a lot of people with a 75 off. Especially if they can't return the fish to a local fish store. You will always have a few idiots that prove me wrong and may spend for a short term pet but I think a lot less pangasius would die if you could only order them from fish farms rather than buy on a whim passing through petco.

 

[jaws7777]

I disagree. Higher prices for certain species of extra specialist care would put a lot of people with a 75 off. Especially if they can't return the fish to a local fish store. You will always have a few idiots that prove me wrong and may spend for a short term pet but I think a lot less pangasius would die if you could only order them from fish farms rather than buy on a whim passing through petco.

You should see what my local FB page for aquarium sales look like. Vendors arent wasting tank space on fish they cant move. I dont wanna reference anyones stock lists and cast a bad light. If they are on someones list they're selling them. if we are going with 1% of hobbyists that can properly house them then allot are being sold to those that cant. Now imagine how many little johny's are going home with tetras that dont survive the 1st couple of weeks.