Why does everyone overdo the bio?

[OnceLoyal]

I think the majority of the people on here are very hardcore. They like monster fish and like having monster filtration with a monsterous amount of Bio Media!!! I don't think I am over filtered or have too much bio media at all. I do think it is better to slightly over due than under due though. Just for the simple fact of, gee I don't have time for my WC this week or month. Oh man, one of my fish must have died 2 days ago, but I wasn't here to take it out. I think it all depends on the need. If this thread is only focused on Bio Media, then yes I think a lot of people on here overkill. I think it is diificult however to over filter in the mechanical point of view. I don't like to see my "water"... I like to look through the glass and see my fish suspended in nothing

 

[Bderick67]

Well BDerick... wouldn't it make more sense to help people better understand what is really going on... as opposed to misleading them to believe that adding a bunch of bio media will solve their concerns?

In my experinece in life well beyond, as well as including fishkeeping... nothing beats a solid education or thorough understanding...

Using your approach of overkilling Bio Media as a "solution"... Doesn't solve the problem/conern for people who remove a portion of their bacteria. Miseducating them that extra Bio Media allows for removal of bacteria is putting their fish at risk... and people come here to be educated on ways to remove their fish from risk...

But giving them a fair and honest education / understanding allows them to make intelligent decisions and choices...

However you word it... I just can't support misinforming people even if you do it "for their own good"...

OK nut, please refer where I have misinformed anyone. And if my conception of a sensible amount of bio media is overkill then well so be it. Way I see it though it, buying an AC110 and only running the sponge and leaving out the biomax that comes with it is just plain stupid, don't care what your findings are, that's just bad advise.

Prove me wrong...within reason the more available area you provide for bacteria to grow the more stable you tank will be. Now I know your belief is that there is more then enough area within the tank, but if that is the case then why the continuous mini cycles when using the type filter I previously mentioned. Unfortunately because the flow though out the surface area with in the tank is low, the bacteria growth is concentrated in areas with higher flow.

So the bare 10 gallon processing 5 ppm of ammonia was not worth posting about ?

I am starting the same experiment and ill tell ya what when its cycling 5 ppm a day Ill drop in a nice healthy tiger barb and feed him daily
Let you know when day 60 passes

OK and then after 60 days you will have proved that there is enough surface area within a 10g tank to support a 2"fish. Will you then add more fish? At what point will you stop. If you really want to post a finding then prove the maximum amount of fish that can be supported without bio media. Hope your not going to also try to prove that mech filtration is not needed also.

BTW you do know that tiger barbs are schooling fish, right?

 

[dwilder]

i know when ever i have had a filter break down i personally have had more than a mini cycle which imo at least shows that if there the bb prefer the bio media with the flow in the filter over the area in the tank and imo the bb media is a safe zone were i dont clean or disturb much so imo it is beneficial to have how much do you need is up to science i have seen some info showing how to prove how much area you do need under tank conditions so the info is out there

 

[Toby_H]

OK nut, please refer where I have misinformed anyone.

　
You are misleading people when you argue against myself and others encouraging people to understand the truth… meaning what their literally need…
　
I have not once read or wrote that people should not use Bio Media… Only that they should know what is necessary, and make intelligent decisions from there. I’m not even arrogant enough to suggest what “intelligent decisions” they should make. I simply try to educate people on details and let them make their own decisions…
　
　

Way I see it though it, buying an AC110 and only running the sponge and leaving out the biomax that comes with it is just plain stupid, don't care what your findings are, that's just bad advise.

　
I agree… and I put the Bio Max in my AC filters… since it came with them it’s silly not to. But when the bag wears out/breaks down I usually throw out the Bio Max, as I understand it’s not a necessity…
　
　

Now I know your belief is that there is more then enough area within the tank, but if that is the case then why the continuous mini cycles when using the type filter I previously mentioned.

　
As I have explained earlier in this thread… and as you have suggested you already know…
　
When you remove a portion of bacteria… it takes time (not media) for the remaining colony to expand to make up for the loss…
　
PS - No amount of additional media will remove the necessary time for this to happen… which is a misconception you previously promoted…
　
　

Unfortunately because the flow though out the surface area with in the tank is low, the bacteria growth is concentrated in areas with higher flow.

　
I do agree bacteria is likely to concentrate in the higher flow places… such as in the filter, as well as in the tank near the intake and return…
　
But also realize that lower concentrations of bacteria spread throughout the tank has it’s advantages. Just because you push 5 or 10 times your tanks volume through your filter(s) per hour, doesn’t mean that every drop of water goes through a filter 5 to 10 times per hour. Much of the water interacts with surfaces within the tank before it goes back into the filter (or else there wouldn't be bacteria in the tank )
　
I do not argue against large quantities of bacteria accumulating in the filter… I argue that bacteria can and will form in your system in the necessary quantities regardless. If you want to make special places for it to do so, you are welcome to… but it isn’t necessary…

I do not suggest it is a bad idea to use Bio Media... I only educate people that it is not necessary... and let them choose to or not to use it...
　
　

OK and then after 60 days you will have proved that there is enough surface area within a 10g tank to support a 2"fish. Will you then add more fish? At what point will you stop. If you really want to post a finding then prove the maximum amount of fish that can be supported without bio media. Hope your not going to also try to prove that mech filtration is not needed also.

　
LOL… You’re a ton of fun Derrick… In one post you challenge me to keep a fish alive in a bare 10 gal now you are criticizing him for accepting your challenge…
　
Adding ammonia, as opposed to fish… is a much more controlled, therefore scientific, approach at proving the same thing… it’s also more “humane” since we are not forcing a living creature to be part of an experiment…
　
Go do some research and see how big a fish would have to be to produce 5 ppm of ammonia per day… My experiment has already proved what you want us to prove… you’ve just yet to accept it…
　
　

i know when ever i have had a filter break down i personally have had more than a mini cycle which imo at least shows that if there the bb prefer the bio media with the flow in the filter over the area in the tank...

　
If this were true as simply as you present it… then you could take all of the fish and the filter(s) from a mature tank… and place it in/on a brand new tank… and you wouldn’t experience anything more than a very small mini cycle…
　
Which I have done personally and had just as much of a “mini cycle” as I would have expected to have if I replaced the old filters media with all new media…
　
　
While I agree/understand that a large portion of bacteria lives in the filter… it is not true to think that this is the only place it can/will/does live/thrive.

 

[sostoudt]

you guys should come up with a surface area per kilogram of fish ratio.

ready go....

 

[dwilder]

i have many times moved a filter and fish and not have any mini cycles i have had issues when filter stopped working i very much agree with you nc that the filter is not the only place bb can live, thrive just that in general a filter is a better place for the bb to thrive and seem to do so prefer the filter

 

[Toby_H]

i have many times moved a filter and fish and not have any mini cycles i have had issues when filter stopped working i very much agree with you nc that the filter is not the only place bb can live, thrive just that in general a filter is a better place for the bb to thrive and seem to do so prefer the filter

I've moved many times since I've been keeping multiple fish tanks... and in doing so I've often started additional tanks as part of a move, and therefore set the brand new tank up at the new house, then brought fish and filters over and put them in the enw tank (same size as the last)...

When I've done this, I've seen mini Cycles...


The way I "cycle" new tanks is, take a filter off of an old tank, put it on a new tank and replace the old filter with a brand new one.

I've done this many times by taking an AC110 off of a 75 gal that was fitlered by 2x AC110s... very very rarely does this cause a mini cycle of measurable quantities...


This is not to discount your experiences, and obviously there is a logical explaination to explain the difference in experiences... I'm not willing to assume what that is though...

 

[dwilder]

yes there are different conditions for each persons tanks so each of us can be right about are own tanks

 

[cvermeulen]

yes there are different conditions for each persons tanks so each of us can be right about are own tanks

This is a scientific debate, not sports day at elementary school. Not everyone gets a blue ribbon.

Bderick - I'm not sure exactly what it is you're advocating here. The conversation isn't supposed to be telling people what to do and what not to do, it's been clearly stated many times that if you want to build a huge bio filter, then go ahead, but let's all understand just how (generally) needless it is, so those who don't know better won't copy you (and waste time and money in the process) out of ignorance. It's also been stated that having a bio area is desirable for several reasons, but that in terms of pure, basic science it is not strictly NECESSARY. Of course if you have a bio filter the bacteria will populate it - it is designed to accommodate them. If you remove it, you remove the BB along with it, and you will have a mini cycle as the BB populates elsewhere. This does not demonstrate that your bio filter was necessary, only that you've disrupted the ecosystem and it must re-balance.

Also, to whoever said that a large filtration system is good insurance in case you are too busy to do a waterchange, this is more misinformation. Unless you have a large denitrifying filter (99.9% of us do not) then your water change schedule won't change no matter how large your bio filter is. The only thing you can do as insurance for this is perhaps to run a very large sump to increase your available water volume. Conventional Bio-Filters Do not Process Nitrate.

 

[Jgray152]

Prove me wrong...within reason the more available area you provide for bacteria to grow the more stable you tank will be.

Wrong. There is nothing to "Prove". If you have a stable tank already with ammonia and nitrite at zero with X amount of surface area, adding more surface area is NOT going to make a MORE stable environment. Why can people filter a 180 gallon tank with 5 liters of media? Regardless of the media type. Then others argue that you need 20 liters or more for that size tank to be "stable". Wrong.

This is the thinking process nutc, I and others try to tell everyone. Most everyone here is to cynical toward the information that have been made to believe over the years.

Adding more surface area to an established bio culture will only allow the bacteria to "Spread Out". You will not get more BB unless you have a heavier bio load.

I don't think I am over filtered or have too much bio media at all. I do think it is better to slightly over due than under due though. Just for the simple fact of, gee I don't have time for my WC this week or month.

Nitrification bacteria will not help with late water changes. In fact it will make it worse.