Wild strain trimacs vs "pyro" trimacs?

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I guess if you want to complicate things even further, the species problem could ssert itself here. The common definition of species is "any two organism that reproduce sexually and have fertile offsrping." That would make these green amphilophus sp. I guess hehe. A more easily used definition is species that do not reproduce with any other species for a variety of reasons in nature. Even then it's ambiguous.

in chapter II (TWO!) Of Origin of the Species, Darwin wrote:

No one definition has satisfied all naturalists; yet every naturalist knows vaguely what he means when he speaks of a species. Generally the term includes the unknown element of a distinct act of creation.

Quit a problem to say the least.
 
Cichlids are so closely related and genetically plastic that the tradition species concept doesn't fit so well.

For example, all of the cichlid species from Lake Victoria developed in the last 12-15,000 years - an evolutionary eye-blink...and changing conditions in the Lake are making obsolete old species...and new species are developing rapidly. Captive-bred examples from Lake Victoria, because they've bred and developed in conditions wildly different than the lake, become morphologically (and I'd bet genetically) different than their past wild ancestors because aquarium conditions, food, etc. are very different than the lake itself.

Our Linnaean model of classifying species according to morphological characteristics doesn't work well for cichlids, either (in the wild or the aquarium). Many cichlid species like V. synspilum...er...melanurum are highly variable. Same with Malawi peacocks or Australoheros...or Cryptoheros...or Tropheus.

Whether different variants of a fish are different species or distinct populations of one species...or whatever...is largely an esoteric, scientific question. (Successful) icthyologists spend their careers getting papers published about different ways of splitting and grouping fish into different buckets...based on new and exciting methods of classification. It's what they do. The names change. But the fish stay the same.

Which brings me to the point: If you're interested in maintaining a population of fish that are as close to wild type as possible, then actual collection location, not selecting for exceptional traits, not introducing unknown fish into the line, etc. are really important.

If you're interested in pretty fish, then go ahead and line breed, hybridize, etc. to your heart's content. Just label them correctly!

Matt
 
Thanks Ed - got into the site...

Pedigree for Bojack & Miss Pikachu
Pyro Trimac Cichlids

I'm not quite sure how to read what he's provided but a lot of the breeders in the pedigree are listed as "unknown"...which in the trimac world can't help but mean "flowerhorn".

Anyone know what a "Belly Sister" is? Evidently Miss Pikachu is a Belly Sister to Bojack. :drool:

Matt

PS This thread is the first (and second...now third) time that I've typed the work "Pikachu" (God bless you!)

flowerpower said:
Here?
http://sites.google.com/site/realhardcichlidskennel/
:popcorn:
Click to expand...
 
I'm sure it means Miss Pikachu Belly is the sister of Bojack. I read some other pedigrees on his site and there was another female with "Belly" in her name. One thing for sure, every time this guy enters or is mentioned in a thread it leads to a long discussion. You have to admit, he's very much into his breeding.
 
He's got some ACS Grand Champions from his Pyro stock. Very impressive.
 
dogofwar said:
a lot of the breeders in the pedigree are listed as "unknown"...which in the trimac world can't help but mean "flowerhorn".
Click to expand...

Actually all the one's that he lists as "Unknown" are either the parents of a Jeff Rapps fish or the parents of a wild caught fish. So according to the pedigree, no, "unknown" is definately not flowerhorn.

He might be making good choices for breeders(?) and develping a good line of trimacs(?)but his line is certainly not too far removed from the wild....both Bojack and miss Pikachu have a Jeff Rapps fish as one of their parents. Actually they have the exact same parents.....must have something to do with what is meant as "belly" sister" ( maybe same parents, different batch?)
 
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