And as long as culling is in the mix too, we can also discussed how the nazis liked to do that too--to people!!!
Worst fish keeper
- Thread starter Joshuakahan
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You shouldve used the laughy emoticon on my post so i could get some reaction score. Instead you upped your post count. Selfish...
I'll add that I think YouTube should ban all such fish vs. fish videos.
I don't need to spin it any way, you are the one who first brought up the false equivalency and then accused RD of same after he just played off your argument.
For the record I've personally never had to starve a single fish to get them on pellets, but if anyone called YOU a fish abuser because you did so in a responsible manner, I wouldn't agree with them. Nor would I equate it with starving a child (or even telling a kid he can't have dessert until he eats his veggies).
And no, I don't want go down the slippery slope you refer to by invoking Nazis, Stalin etc., talk about more false equivalencies (which if fully pursued would inevitably force one to argue that keeping most any pet is cruel/abusive).
I understand why you don't want our community to use the words "animal abuse" -- because you don't want PETA types trying to ban our whole hobby. But I think it's better for we as a community to clearly stand against bad practices -- and bad videos where people are facilitating let alone laughing about fish hurting/killing each other. In this way we can show the PETA types and non-hobbyists we truly care about the well-being of the creatures under our care. Brushing it under the rug as being a little irresponsible will have no such effect.
I don't need to spin it any way, you are the one who first brought up the false equivalency and then accused RD of same after he just played off your argument.
For the record I've personally never had to starve a single fish to get them on pellets, but if anyone called YOU a fish abuser because you did so in a responsible manner, I wouldn't agree with them. Nor would I equate it with starving a child (or even telling a kid he can't have dessert until he eats his veggies).
And no, I don't want go down the slippery slope you refer to by invoking Nazis, Stalin etc., talk about more false equivalencies (which if fully pursued would inevitably force one to argue that keeping most any pet is cruel/abusive).
I understand why you don't want our community to use the words "animal abuse" -- because you don't want PETA types trying to ban our whole hobby. But I think it's better for we as a community to clearly stand against bad practices -- and bad videos where people are facilitating let alone laughing about fish hurting/killing each other. In this way we can show the PETA types and non-hobbyists we truly care about the well-being of the creatures under our care. Brushing it under the rug as being a little irresponsible will have no such effect.
I'll concede all these points to you. Im just a little weary of certain methods/practices constantly being endorsed here as gospel of fishkeeping when the so called science or other reasoning behind it is full of holes and contradicting opinions.
OP many apologies for the outburst. I bow out of this one before i get another behavioral warning for having an opinion.
WTH are you talking about? lol The person that posted this video should have his head slapped, same as any moron that did this with dogs, cats, etc. You stated:
There was nothing natural about what was taking place in this tank, and unlike you I did listen to the whole commentary.
This is exactly the type of person that you should be concerned about, not those who speak up against the idjits of the world. Because it is people like this that open the door for organizations such as PETA to cry foul against our hobby. IMO what he was/is doing IS cruel, and it IS abuse of the animals under his care. I'm not saying that I would call the authorities on him, or give him a beat down for his actions, but it certainly isn't in line with the proper care of a pet fish. You clearly agreed with that much.
Referring to Stalin, or Nazi practices during the Holocaust, to withholding food from a fish for food training purposes, is ludicrous.
Your comparison to children is inaccurate because children are not physiologically the same as a fish, especially fish that by design can typically go days, even weeks without food, and bounce right back like nothing happened. Not just during normal conditions in the wild, such as periods of feast or famine, but also on a regular basis in our tanks in captivity. In fact, mouthbrooding females do this on a regular basis in captivity. They condition themselves prior to spawning, and then often go 3-4 weeks without food. They aren't STARVING, and they don't DIE, and they do this by choice ......... unlike the historical groups that you referred to.
I'm actually quite shocked that you would use that part of history to support any type of debate on a fish keeping forum.
No ones doubting the fish are physiologically capable of being starved. I dont see how youre not grasping what im saying.
the brooding behavior of female cichlids you describe and subsequent self-deprivation is a natural process. You could surround the protective mother with pellets, worms, shrimp, whatever and she still won't eat. However, as a keeper, when you starve a fish, you are playing god. Bending the fish to your will through coercion via manipulating its food supply. The fish gets hungry and accepts whatever youre offering eventually because it doesnt want to die of starvation. Theres nothing natural or in sync with the animals biorhythm about abruptly depriving it of food.
I'll also remind you that there are many instances of animals, fish included, abandoning their nacent offspring when environmental conditions beyond their control make it impossible for them to care for both themselves and the offspring.
While my parallels to early 20th century socialist regimes may seem ridiculous to you, i assure you they are not unfounded. The leaders of those regimes(and many others) used starvation to manipulate their subjects in very much the same manner one might as they oversee their aquatic community.
Lastly, regarding the competitive behavior shown in the video. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that liplocking was a territorial or breeding behavior that cichlids have obviously developed and practiced over millions of years of evolution. If youre trying to tell me that cichlids spar like this only within the confines of a glass box deemed too small by those that would, well then id ask you to put down the crack pipe.
In my opinion, hes not a responsible keeper. It could be worse though. Thats all. Im not gonna incriminate the guy as enough are pushing that envelope already. And thats it.
How can someone start a hobby without doing a couple of research? Every fish has different attribution like as human beings, I am not a fan of this video, I find it cruel to take a video of two fishes fighting at each other.
….. because unlike you, I don't compare withholding of food from a fish, for training purposes, for a short duration, to be considered starving. Most dictionaries, by definition, don't agree with your view either.
And I most certainly don't compare it to anything that took place during 20th century socialist regimes. I actually live in a house that was previously owned by a very good friend, a dear friend who was a Nazi officer during the second world war. Your assurance regarding the connection means zero to me. It's not just ridiculous, it's downright asinine.
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