live feeder preperation, what do you do?

[screaminleeman]

Esox is how this whole post came about in my head. my red fin won't take anything but live, and occasionally tilapia if I jig it in the water (have to starve him for a while, wont do it on a daily basis)

I guess ultimately it comes down to what you are either willing to do or willing to deal with when it comes to feeding your fish.

I know that this will be of little help, but this is my latest effort. I have gotten my redfin pickerel (All 10) to accept a different kind of live feeder in hopes that the variety will trigger enough of a change in diet to possibly make pellets palatable.

I have been cloning (if that is the correct term) the mokreb crayfish for a couple of years now. I have populations in around a dozen or so tanks including all three of the redfin pickerel tanks. They love picking off the baby crawfish helping to keep their numbers in check. At least, once you have QT'd the crayfish, and supply hiding caves, you can breed/clone a major supply of pathogen free feeders.

I am also hoping that this helps if, (and from what RD has explained to us in my case possibly sooner rather than later) starvation off of live feeder fish is required, the resident baby crawfish can extend the starvation period for long enough to get the pickerels on NLS.

Worst case scenario, the Crayfish tear the heck out of the NLS pellets like they died and went to invertebrate heaven, that the Pickerel are avoiding like the plague.

I will keep you updated on my transition to pellet on my three species.

Also, Please let us know if you find a successful method to get these magnificent predators off of live feeders.

And here I got into esox thinking that they would be incredibly similar to getting Lepisosteidae genus gar off live!

 

[predatorkeeper87]

I know that this will be of little help, but this is my latest effort. I have gotten my redfin pickerel (All 10) to accept a different kind of live feeder in hopes that the variety will trigger enough of a change in diet to possibly make pellets palatable.

I have been cloning (if that is the correct term) the mokreb crayfish for a couple of years now. I have populations in around a dozen or so tanks including all three of the redfin pickerel tanks. They love picking off the baby crawfish helping to keep their numbers in check. At least, once you have QT'd the crayfish, and supply hiding caves, you can breed/clone a major supply of pathogen free feeders.

I am also hoping that this helps if, (and from what RD has explained to us in my case possibly sooner rather than later) starvation off of live feeder fish is required, the resident baby crawfish can extend the starvation period for long enough to get the pickerels on NLS.

Worst case scenario, the Crayfish tear the heck out of the NLS pellets like they died and went to invertebrate heaven, that the Pickerel are avoiding like the plague.

I will keep you updated on my transition to pellet on my three species.

Also, Please let us know if you find a successful method to get these magnificent predators off of live feeders.

And here I got into esox thinking that they would be incredibly similar to getting Lepisosteidae genus gar off live!

I will definitely keep you updated if I find some method haha. I'm not keen on feeding pellets to my red fin regardless, but like I said he has taken tilapia off a jig line before, which is a HUGE improvement haha.

 

[screaminleeman]

With regards to QT, and fish, this is another good read. From a biosecurity paper found on ornamentalfish.org

http://www.ornamentalfish.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Biosecurity.pdf

Very interesting. It raises several thoughts/ question however to be best applied to a feeder fish quarantine tank.

1. Is there a relatively close to accurate set of QT duration data available on each of the more common pathogens that we are attempting to QT within a much more limited range of say 65F - 75F? If there is ample data for the QT duration of majority of the most likely occurring pathogens within this much tighter range of temperatures, it is possible to use the longest average incubation period of the various pathogens within the temperature range as a duration threshold to be used to maximize the QT time while minimizing the potential infection of the tank to be fed.
2. what is the correlation that I keep reading in fish between stress and disease resulting from a pathogen?
More to the point, is the isolation/ observation period say 10% of the overall quarantine vs. maintaining a low stress level in the main tank being 90% of the challenge? Is it vice-versa? 50-50?

 

[RD.]

From that same paper .......

ALWAYS A PATHOGEN? OR JUST ON SPECIAL OCCASIONS

Diseases causing organisms fall into two categories:

OBLIGATE PATHOGENS: always cause disease when able to invade the hosts bodies. They may only cause disease in certain circumstances eg Koi Herpes Virus (KHV) can become latent in the fishes body and generally only causes disease between 18 and 30C.

FACULTATIVE PATHOGEN: don't usually cause disease but can when their population explodes due to environmental conditions or for instance because a fish’s immune system is depressed, the water quality is diminished or the fish is wounded. Most fish pathogens fit this description and are very opportunistic relatively rarely causing disease in healthy well-managed fish stocks. The risks posed and strategies to avoid obligate and facultative pathogens may differ. Indeed the conditions that lead to facultative pathogens causing problems in your facility may not ever exist. Theoretically such organisms pose a risk but in practice may never do so

So for most of us, facultative pathogens are what we are mostly going to be dealing with, and these types of pathogens will typically only surface when some type of stressor is present. In an aquarium setting that could be triggered from various things, such as stress from aggression, breeding, low 02 levels, high organic levels (DOC's), open wounds from cuts/scrapes, incorrect balance of nutrients, overfeeding causing gastrointestinal issues (bloat), etc. In feeders the moving of the fish from one environment (tank) to another could cause enough stress to cause an outbreak in weaker specimens.

As far as qt data available for all of the various pathogens typically encountered in the aquarium trade, I honestly don't know exactly what's out there, and what isn't. For certain many of the more common pathogens have been studied & discussed in detail over the years, and there are conditions that have been described that will inhibit outbreaks, and that can trigger outbreaks. An example would be Flavobacterium columnare, where through some of the current science we now know that there are many strains (19 I think at last count?), and that these strains can be heavily influenced by temperature, pH, salinity, hardness, and organic compounds. This is IMO one of the worst pathogens in the aquarium trade at this time, as it strikes fast & hard, and can kill a fish before one even figures out what's happening. http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?580471-HELP!-Swollen-lips-mouth!

For anyone interested I would start by reading the paper linked to below, in full. http://www.ornamentalfish.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Biosecurity.pdf

There are numerous prevenative measures one can put into play if they want to. I haven't read that entire document so perhaps it's discussed, if not, here's another preventative measure that I use in all of my tanks. Cost is minimal, dirt cheap, and it has been proven to be effective & utilized & endorsed within the aquaculture circles for it's role in competitive exclusion - probiotics. You can read more about that in the following sticky.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?536531-The-Use-of-Probiotics-in-Aquaculture

Competitive exclusion is a term used in aquariums to keep pathogenic (bad) bacteria in low levels in an aquarium or pond.

By adding known harmless waste eating bacteria in large numbers the added bacteria out competes any existing bad bacteria for the nutrients in the tank and therefore is a safe and effective way to starve off infectious bacteria. In the medical industry this technique is called 'bacterial interference' and is used to displace pathogens by using harmless bacteria.

This is a successful way for beginners to keep your fish healthy. In a new tank there will be virtually no bacteria to out-compete bad bacteria that may be in the fish's gut. So with micro-particles of fish food floating down to the substrate, the bacteria from the fish, ornaments and of course the aquarists hands are all a huge food source for bacteria and are able to grow with no competition from anything else.

By adding harmless bacteria from a commercial bottle in large quantities, you starve off the bad bacteria by sheer volume.

This method also reduces maintenance on your filter and helps keep the gravel cleaner as the bacteria consumes all decaying material and breaks down dead plant matter that would otherwise take weeks to breakdown. This method is commonly used in human sewage treatment to break down human produced mulm. This method is why having a soil-based (Walstad) tank is so successful. The soil has tens of thousands of species, with billions upon billions of bacteria in it which keeps pathogenic bacteria levels very low.

HTH

 

[rodger]

OP, do you have a cat? Do you keep feeder mice and canaries for it? Do you have a dog? Do you keep feeder rabbits for it? Same thing HA HA. Of course you wouldn't mess with it HA HA HA. Quality dry foods are better for them and there are no dangers to your pets HA HA. LOL. There is nothing wrong withholding food from your fish to train them to eat better food HA HA. Someone else in the thread mentioned that fish in the wild go days without catching a meal LOL and it would be the same in your aquarium HA HA HA.

 

[Karl K]

oh bass take well to pellets no doubt haha that is for certain. same with bluegills and pumpkin seeds.
pickerel are primarily piscivorious (sp?) in the wild however, as I'm fairly certain all of the esox species are.
so for me to force them to eat pellets...just doesnt feel right. Bass will eat anything edible that hits the water haha. as for the salt bath, oh hell ya its a waste of time haha but it helps me sleep better hahaha.

I know pellets, if I'm going all crazy about this hobby being a scientific experiment, is the way to generally go, i get that I do. I also know live feeders are taboo here on this site, and very few people will admit to preferring them. this being due to nutrition and disease primarily. But if you take the time, effort and patience to prepare feeders through medication, tank maintenance, and proper diet they are twice as healthy to feed your wet pets than a processed pellet. thats just my thought process on it. So whether pellets are preferred due to convenience, pure laziness, or the need to make sure your fish is the starting quarterback of the tank, I just cant wrap my head around it haha.

Esox dont just eat live. Theres Even an example of someone here who caught one on bollie.

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[JayC74]

When done right, quarantined gutloaded feeder fish can really work to put early growth on skinny predators ime till I get them on the dreaded frozen. My fish are prob way behind the 8ball with this approach, but oh well. If my fish die soon and I can link it to this, I will sure go dry foods only

 

[dogofwar]

I culture my own red wiggler worms (also known as composting worms). Super easy and a single rubbermaid in my garage supports feeding a 50+ tank fishroom a couple of times per week.

Haven't bought live or frozen foods in years and have yet to find a fish that doesn't want to eat them...

Matt

 

[predatorkeeper87]

OP, do you have a cat? Do you keep feeder mice and canaries for it? Do you have a dog? Do you keep feeder rabbits for it? Same thing HA HA. Of course you wouldn't mess with it HA HA HA. Quality dry foods are better for them and there are no dangers to your pets HA HA. LOL. There is nothing wrong withholding food from your fish to train them to eat better food HA HA. Someone else in the thread mentioned that fish in the wild go days without catching a meal LOL and it would be the same in your aquarium HA HA HA.

whooooooaaaaa....steady there big fella....I hate cats, they are small packages of anarchy and dischord. so no. I dont have a dog but I like them, and as such would feed a prey based dry food (it exists, its either venison, rabbit, or bison based, the name eludes me as it is an inuit name), and if you are a serious dog lover, look into how breeders and trainers feed raw meat to their dogs, its healthy for them in moderation. Heres the difference brotha, a dog will eat dry food without much hesitance. As I stated earlier, if the fish will readily take pellets without starvation, I feed pellets. My bullhead gets pellets and tilapia, earthworms on occasion. my pickerel is a straight predator, there is no want of them to scavenge for anything. Starvation may be a tried and true method of breaking your fish out of its natural habits, but to me...thats just asking for zoo syndrome fish...I dont know maybe that doesn't happen with aquarium pets the same as it does for zoo animals but I just cant get behind withholding food from a fish for weeks on end because I want them to take a processed pellet...

 

[predatorkeeper87]

Esox dont just eat live. Theres Even an example of someone here who caught one on bollie.

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If google served me right, bolie is a premade bait. but if they caught an esox species with it, I can almost assure you theres more to that story than "oh I caught a pike with carp bait!"
I'd bet anything that fish took that bait due to it either moving infront of them on a reel in and them having a reactive bite, or they hooked a smaller fish with the bait and the esox took the smaller fish. I think you'll find more accounts of pike or muskie hooking themselves on a caught fish on the reel in rather than them taking a bottom bait.