New thread...p14 is very swollen????? Video-

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I have to run 2 - 100 gpd ro's here my ph out of the tap is 8.6 - 8.7 and hard, not at all suitable for rays.

Can you tell us at what PH you feel is "suitable for rays?" What are you mixing at for ratios? What PH is your end result?

I used to think high PH was bad too, but I've kept rays in hard water for years and so have many others.

Doesn't seem anyone here has been able to provide any proof that lower PH is better for them.

If it's broke let's fix it, BUT if it isn't broke does it really need fixed?
 
Can you tell us at what PH you feel is "suitable for rays?" What are you mixing at for ratios? What PH is your end result?

I used to think high PH was bad too, but I've kept rays in hard water for years and so have many others.

Doesn't seem anyone here has been able to provide any proof that lower PH is better for them.

If it's broke let's fix it, BUT if it isn't broke does it really need fixed?
I'd have to say you hit the nail on the head intentional or not Al most fish have the abilaty aclimate to just about any water condition from very good to very bad Some react poorly some do not he has him eating that is a huge step and hopefully he will recover completly ....
 
Can't advise on the main issue, but I have kept my rays at a PH of 8.0+ for over 3 years now with no issues. I personally don't believe the underlying issue is PH.

Still pulling for you Keep.
 
the ph he came from is around 8.0 all his brothers and sisters are doing great ...i wish i know wtf is causeing this i have shipped tons of rays and never had this happen or actually never seem this happen ever....im sorry i feel like hell pull through just keep doing what your doing and make sure he eats and he will recover sorry bro ..i wish i could do something to fix this ....
 
It is not the pH per se that affects the fish, it is the hardness, which pH also indicates to an extent. There is also a direct relationship between pH and temperature, and imo most people keep their rays too hot.
Look at it this way: If you were trying to breed any Amazonian egg laying fish you would have a zero hatch rate in hard water as the minerals harden the egg casings before they can be fertilized. The only reason your rays appear to be OK , and even breed, is because they use internal fertilization.
Potamotrygon have evolved over millions of years to live in extremely soft acidic water, and 1 , 2 or even 10 generations of tank breeding won't hardly begin to change that.
pH is a logarithmic scale. pH 8 is 10 X more alkaline than pH 7. Rays usually inhabit water with pH 6.5 and lower or at least 15 X lower than 8. How can this possibly be good for the ray?
It is not secret that the closer you can mimic the natural habitat's water conditions the better the animal will be, and conversely, the further away you are from their ideal the worse off they are, especially from the extra stress. Hardness and pH are 2 of the biggest factors in this.
Ph 8 may be survivable but is far from ideal. The possible consequences are wasted energy expenditure leading to a compromised immune system leading to a greater
susceptiblity to parasite damage and bacterial infections, leading to slower growth and shorter lives, lower reproduction rates and generally weakened animals.
Couple this with spending $$$thousands on rays, knowing the water is not ideal yet not having relatively inexpensive accurate digital water test equipment or a decent R/O unit seems to me to be counter productive and pennywise but pound foolish. Like putting diesel fuel in a high octane engine, it just won;t work right and sooner or later will blow up in your face.

"If you ain't gonna try to do it right why do it at all?"
 
It is not the pH per se that affects the fish, it is the hardness, which pH also indicates to an extent. There is also a direct relationship between pH and temperature, and imo most people keep their rays too hot.
Look at it this way: If you were trying to breed any Amazonian egg laying fish you would have a zero hatch rate in hard water as the minerals harden the egg casings before they can be fertilized. The only reason your rays appear to be OK , and even breed, is because they use internal fertilization.
Potamotrygon have evolved over millions of years to live in extremely soft acidic water, and 1 , 2 or even 10 generations of tank breeding won't hardly begin to change that.
pH is a logarithmic scale. pH 8 is 10 X more alkaline than pH 7. Rays usually inhabit water with pH 6.5 and lower or at least 15 X lower than 8. How can this possibly be good for the ray?
It is not secret that the closer you can mimic the natural habitat's water conditions the better the animal will be, and conversely, the further away you are from their ideal the worse off they are, especially from the extra stress. Hardness and pH are 2 of the biggest factors in this.
Ph 8 may be survivable but is far from ideal. The possible consequences are wasted energy expenditure leading to a compromised immune system leading to a greater
susceptiblity to parasite damage and bacterial infections, leading to slower growth and shorter lives, lower reproduction rates and generally weakened animals.
Couple this with spending $$$thousands on rays, knowing the water is not ideal yet not having relatively inexpensive accurate digital water test equipment or a decent R/O unit seems to me to be counter productive and pennywise but pound foolish. Like putting diesel fuel in a high octane engine, it just won;t work right and sooner or later will blow up in your face.

"If you ain't gonna try to do it right why do it at all?"


i see where you are coming from David... I am embarrassed to say i don't have the fancy test equipment, but have never needed it and have had rays doing what i would consider to be very well for a while now..
 
Not meant as a pop at you specifically keepingfish, more as a general comment...I know you want to do the best you can.
seriously tho, a good pH meter is around $125 and accurate to 0.01 with constant 'at a glance' readings, where a liquid or paper test is (sometimes) accurate to the nearest 1.
A conductivity meter is around $160.
American Marine is pretty good equipment.
Both are invaluable, they really help you ( anyone) to know and understand where your water chemistry is 'at' and provide a better early warning system than a ray will, especially if one is manipulating the water chemistry with acids or buffers or mixing r/o with tap, or knowing when you have got all the salt out of your system after a treatment...etc.
A desirable ray is a big investment, not to mention the cost of tanks filters and food etc. 1 gorgeous marbled motoro is worth $1000 or more I think, exotic blacks $1500 and wayyy up, so the digital meters are a very good investment, and I strenuously recommend them to everyone keeping soft water fish.
The number 1 reason by far for all fish deaths is water quality. Optimum water quality is paramount in fish husbandry.
There is a famous Japanese Koi breeder , I forget his name now.... who said something very Zen like: " I don't keep fish, I keep water, my fish just happen to live in that water"
 
ive never paid much attention to ph and hardness, cause it is hard to change and keep constant. Plus i have heard so many times "rays can adapt"
 
He does not "look" any better, but he is eating and seems to be eating better, he is also more active. So for now i may just continue to monitor him and see if he continues to improve or if he starts getting worse.
 
I hate David's posts, yet love them.

Not sure how everyone else's reality tastes but mine tastes bitter.

I knew there was a reason I wasn't keeping fancy rays yet. Cause I don't know how to keep the ones I have.

Back to the drawing board. Yet AGAIN. :(
 
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