Line Breeding -- Where is the Line?

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Love the flowerpots!

Collection point?

I mean I'll set up an entire tank around one specific lake or river and only keep species found there. That tank above was based on Lake Xiloa (rather the edge of it near some trees during breeding season). Although it is now a festae tank which is probably more biotope correct anyway with that background.


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aclockworkorange~
Those Xilos do look happy in that tank! Very natural looking. My skills at decor are not as good as yours, mine get fake plastic plants and some river rocks. I hope mine color up as nicely as yours, they haven't "peeled" yet.
 
aclockworkorange~
Those Xilos do look happy in that tank! Very natural looking. My skills at decor are not as good as yours, mine get fake plastic plants and some river rocks. I hope mine color up as nicely as yours, they haven't "peeled" yet.

Got some of the ones in that picture for sale if you're interested. :) I began messing around with fake plants rather recently too which led to a whole other existential crisis!


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From my perspective, keeping fish in glass boxes has little to do with conservation...unless fishkeeping inspires people to take concrete actions to support actual conservation or preservation of cichlid habitats...or (less so) organized captive breeding / propagation efforts (i.e. not random hobbyists).

With a few exceptions (Ps. saulosi, "Ilangi" Tropheus), collection of wild freshwater fish for the aquarium hobby ranks way down on the list of threats to wild cichlid habitats (especially in the New World). If you care about conservation, support Rivers International or the Nature Conservancy or some other organization doing real conservation work.

As I posted before, I like wild-type fish because they transport me back to where they're from (whether I've been there or not). They are they way they are because of their habitat. The further that fish are from that original population, the less they're connected to nature (at least for me). Kind of like why a lot of fancy angels don't know how to raise fry!

Matt

I'm well aware about encroachment and other factors I didn't imply(not intentionally anyway) that breeding wild forms would be the sole reason for the survival of wild populations. Merely stated I'm surprised it isn't a consideration for these discussions. Also there are plenty of cases(maybe not in the hobby) where captive animals where the reason for the survival of a species despite being kept in a unnatural environment(your little glass boxes) and reintroduced to the wild so I think those facts make my point valid. When it comes down to it most of the other arguments are subjective and what's the point in arguing personal preference? In that regard we're free to choose what we prefer so how complex can the discussion really be, it's a kin to arguing why someone would like sports cars versus SUV's. Personal preference is personal and shouldn't be subject to anyone else's approval.

What i was trying to say (which i might not have conveyed correctly) was the idea that i like f0 because of what your saying, because its natural selection and way it was suppose to look in nature that is often lost in line breeding, regardless of how it looks. Which is why even though my taste leans towards the "grotesque" hump in midas i still got my wild male just for the chance of owning a wild midas untouched and unaltered. At lease i think thats what you meant.

And to my knowledge there are a lot of species of fish that are being supported solely by hobbyist breeding. No?

Yes, that was my point I thought a discussion about this would be more focused on responsibility since a lot of members on MFK seem to take responsibility seriously yet it's not often mentioned in these threads. While we as hobbyists may not be the leading cause in the loss of wild populations I thought it was important to mention that we may be able to help preserve wild forms. I wasn't trying to find fault with anyone as much as being curious as to why the discussions seem to gravitate in a certain direction.




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Sorry if we did not follow your guideliines in this discussion :)

For me, the responsibility you mention has 2 aspects (1) being trustworthy in what pertains the lines you keep and not sell apples and oranges; (2) the main one, in reality, is giving up on keeping wild fish in glass boxes and spend the money spent on them and on the hobby in prserving their habitat.

All the rest does not make a lot of sense, with me. Want wild, want pure? Leave them in their place and preserve them.

Meh, it's alright I forgive you cause that's the kind of guy I am. :)

I mentioned it above in my response to dogofwar I merely mentioned a alternative argument. Also as dogofwar stated we aren't the primary reason for the loss of wild populations, I just suggested perhaps we can do something to help preserve wild forms and that discussion would be more beneficial. Part of the reason you maybe misunderstanding my point is because you haven't read my previous posts. I'm not a purist just someone who wondered why the discussion gravitate toward personal preference when that shouldn't really be debatable as we're entitled to our preferences.

Also I'm not sure why me stating being responsible by keeping track of lineage wouldn't make sense to you as that's the only other point I mentioned I belive. How do we know what we're getting if we don't and be responsible to ourselves, fellow hobbyists and our fish?
 
Dude, I'm far from stereotypical in my views on hybrids, fancy fish, etc. Just the opposite, actually!

Replicating most of the cichlid habitats that I've visited would mostly involve lots of rocks and tons of detritus and silt. Not exactly aesthetic (or possible).

Matt

And the funnier part... This is coming from me, the guy who spends untold amounts of money on tank decor to attempt to replicate nature,
E8E87159-F141-4ADC-AEF2-D2F9B2E02D0D-1156-000000CB411BE44E.jpg

and generally only keeps biotope communities of fish found together in a specific collection point (I can count on one hand how many other CA cichlid guys I know that keep fish like this).
And then you have Matt, the stereotypical "purist," that mixes fish from all over the place and has flowerpots in his tanks!
Lines drawn indeed...


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Dude, I'm far from stereotypical in my views on hybrids, fancy fish, etc. Just the opposite, actually!

Replicating most of the cichlid habitats that I've visited would mostly involve lots of rocks and tons of detritus and silt. Not exactly aesthetic (or possible).

Matt

But were there any flowerpots?


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Absolutely - different strokes for different folks!

Matt

I'm well aware about encroachment and other factors I didn't imply(not intentionally anyway) that breeding wild forms would be the sole reason for the survival of wild populations. Merely stated I'm surprised it isn't a consideration for these discussions. Also there are plenty of cases(maybe not in the hobby) where captive animals where the reason for the survival of a species despite being kept in a unnatural environment(your little glass boxes) and reintroduced to the wild so I think those facts make my point valid. When it comes down to it most of the other arguments are subjective and what's the point in arguing personal preference? In that regard we're free to choose what we prefer so how complex can the discussion really be, it's a kin to arguing why someone would like sports cars versus SUV's. Personal preference is personal and shouldn't be subject to anyone else's approval.





Meh, it's alright I forgive you cause that's the kind of guy I am. :)

I mentioned it above in my response to dogofwar I merely mentioned a alternative argument. Also as dogofwar stated we aren't the primary reason for the loss of wild populations, I just suggested perhaps we can do something to help preserve wild forms and that discussion would be more beneficial. Part of the reason you maybe misunderstanding my point is because you haven't read my previous posts. I'm not a purist just someone who wondered why the discussion gravitate toward personal preference when that shouldn't really be debatable as we're entitled to our preferences.

Also I'm not sure why me stating being responsible by keeping track of lineage wouldn't make sense to you as that's the only other point I mentioned I belive. How do we know what we're getting if we don't and be responsible to ourselves, fellow hobbyists and our fish?
 
Trash, plastic bottles, broken glass bottles, a few diapers...I caught an awesome knifefish that was living in a, uh, discarded pair of pants... don't recall any Home Depot flowerpots, though ;)

I'll be the first to admit that aquariums are inherently unnatural. And fortunately most cichlids are pretty darn adaptable.

Given the choice, my (wild, Peruvian) Geo. altifrons chose to spawn on a ceramic log and not the copious driftwood, flat stones and other natural stuff around them.

Fish are funny that way.

Matt

But were there any flowerpots?


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skimmed the thread.
"line breeding" is defined by continued breeding within a certain familial group, to get and/or intensify traits chosen by the breeder.
To breed for traits, no matter any familial connection, would just be Selective breeding.
with Line breeding, outcrosses to UNrelated animals are needed to minimize physical weaknesses and deformities. going to wilds would be a safe choice. alternately, totally unrelated fish.
so "the line" is relatedness, not mere traits.
Line breeding carries risks. particularly when longevity and weakness is not be detected. now, with dogs you can xray hips and examine eyes before breeding to ensure soundness. however, this practice was only started after animals started breaking down. with fish, other than visible deformities, we are somewhat screwed.
that fish who dies somewhat early may have internal issues which were never detected before his fry were dispersed throughout the hobby, despite his beauty.
OR, as noted, angelfish with no parenting instincts.

Feel free to boot me if I am talking out of my proverbial rear end ;)
 
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