Northfin food

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A smoking gun? Of course not, we have already determined that consumers and the world at large do not hold pet fish to the same standards as we do dogs, and cats. But that doesn't mean that there is zero data, even if that data is being extrapolated from one species to another, or are taken from outside of an aquarium. Outside of commercial fisheries, there are very few comprehensive scientific studies involving any species of fish, and any type of feed data? In the world of tropical fish and aquariums, when a fish dies we flush it down the toilet and buy another one.

Having said that, we can make at least some assumptions based on aquatic species involving various substances, including vitamins (such as vitamin A toxicity) and extrapolate data from one species to another. Not a perfect science, but no one here is saying that it is.

According to the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA), ethoxyquin is “considered to be toxic to aquatic organisms based on the acute toxicity data provided for fish, daphnia and algae." EFSA Journal 8(9), 1710 [38 pp.]: doi:10.2903/j.efsa.2010.1710 (2010

The EPA has filed a few papers on this subject as well.

MRID No. 43978301 (1996) Ethoxyquin A 96-Hour Flow-Through Acute Toxicity Test with the Rainbow Trout

http://www.ipmcenters.org/Ecotox/Details.cfm?RecordID=10268

MRID No. 43978401 (1996) A 43-Hour Flow-Through Acute Toxicity Test with the Cladoceran (Daphnia magna)

http://www.ipmcenters.org/Ecotox/Details.cfm?RecordID=10267

and Bluegill Sunfish

http://www.ipmcenters.org/Ecotox/Details.cfm?RecordID=18452


PubChem GHS Hazard Statements:

H400: Very toxic to aquatic life [Warning Hazardous to the aquatic environment, acute hazard - Category 1]

H410: Very toxic to aquatic life with long lasting effects [Warning Hazardous to the aquatic environment, long-term hazard - Category 1]

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/ethoxyquin#section=GHS-Classification


No offense meant here gents, but quite frankly I am not interested in your take. The only take at this point that I am interested in hearing is Northfin's. I read on another forum today that they were made aware of these lab reports back in mid December, so for them to sit in silence probably tells me all I need to know.

These are some interesting links! Good detective work :D Keep in mind that what is toxic for one critter is not toxic for another, per se.

Is there a key to these study summaries?

I agree... I'd REALLY like to hear from Northfin on this. I ask for information on another forum sponsored by northfin and was brushed off... why can't the company respond?
 
Keep in mind that what is toxic for one critter is not toxic for another, per se.

I fully understand that, which is why IMO one should take a "better safe than sorry" approach when going beyond the CVM approved levels in pet food. Not only on a species by species case, but also at the various life stages of each species. Obviously if there is a risk factor of any kind involved, then common sense dictates that a less is more approach would be ideal. Not let's see how high we can go before fish become stunted, get cancerous growths, die from liver failure, etc.

Sorry, I don't have a key to those summaries.
 
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Ethoxyquin was originally developed by Monsanto as an herbicide/pesticide in the 1950s. For years, studies regarding its safety were done or sponsored by Monsanto. Nope, no red flags there.

The U.S. National Library of Medicine says the following on its page for ethoxyquin under Safety and Hazards:
Signal: Danger
GHS Hazard Statements
H302: Harmful if swallowed [Warning Acute toxicity, oral - Category 4]
H317: May cause an allergic skin reaction [Warning Sensitization, Skin - Category 1]
H320: Causes eye irritation [Warning Serious eye damage/eye irritation - Category 2B]
H370: Causes damage to organs [Danger Specific target organ toxicity, single exposure - Category 1]
H372: Causes damage to organs through prolonged or repeated exposure [Danger Specific target organ toxicity, repeated exposure - Category 1]
H400: Very toxic to aquatic life [Warning Hazardous to the aquatic environment, acute hazard - Category 1]
H410: Very toxic to aquatic life with long lasting effects [Warning Hazardous to the aquatic environment, long-term hazard - Category 1]


So any documented ethyoxquin-related fish deaths in the history of aquarium-keeping, where fish died after moving from a food with lower concentrations or none to one with higher?
This is relatively meaningless. First of all, you or anyone else here not being aware of such documented cases proves nothing as to whether they exist or not. It's probably safe to say no fish food has a high enough level to cause acute poisoning. It's highly unlikely someone has fed their fish a product containing EQ, then had the fish die so soon thereafter that they rushed right over to their local aquatic toxicology lab where they proved or disproved the EQ in the food killed it.

Secondly: The toxicity of EQ is not even a question. It kills stuff, including fish. Created as a pesticide, it was intended to kill stuff. It's used as a preservative because it kills stuff. In fact, some countries ban it as a pesticide. Just what it kills or how quickly depends on exposure and dosage. EQ has been demonstrated to accumulate in fish tissue (study). It's been demonstrated to cause liver changes. It metabolizes into a brew of other compounds, some of which are suspected or have been demonstrated to have negative effects on fish (also humans).

A valid question, already raised, is how many fish have become sick where chronic or excessive EQ exposure was an undiagnosed cause of contributing factor? No one can really answer that one way or another. What I can answer is the causes of most aquarium fish deaths are unrecognized, undiagnosed, or attributed to 'stress', which can mean a thousand different things. But, no proof of anything here, one way OR the other.

So the real questions are what does long term exposure to dietary EQ do to fish and what should be the max levels in fish feed. The first question might be considered as debatable, or yet to be determined. As to the second, the FDA says max should be 150 ppm. CVM has reportedly requested a max of 75 PPM (reference). So, no one should notice when a product is documented to far exceed these limits? No one should point out that it's deceptive to indicate your product has no EQ, when it has twice the FDA max?

If that doesn't bother you, based on however you want to reason on it, you have a right to your opinion and a right to make your case. What's invalid is to simply dismiss the other side of the argument or those who feel it merits some concern.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijfs/2013/585931/#B28
Ethoxyquin has been used as an antioxidant in animal feed for several decades and despite the search for new compounds that could be used as free radical scavengers, it is still the most effective antioxidant. The negative health effects in domestic animals fed with EQ containing feed were observed some years ago, but the presence of its approved doses should not be hazardous. Toxicity and mutagenicity of EQ were observed in in vivo and in vitro studies showing its potential harmful effects. This makes it very important to label all products and ingredients to which EQ is added and to comply with the recommended doses. Additionally, the results of the studies on products of EQ oxidation, especially EQDM, detected in farmed animal tissues indicate that it should be under control and some regulations should be introduced.
 
Keep in mind that what is toxic for one critter is not toxic for another, per se.
That's not always true, unless we start including certain exotic bacteria, etc. Some substances are toxic to most living organisms. In any case, according to the US National Library of Medicine, EQ is "very toxic to aquatic life with long lasting effects".
 
My point isn't that ethoxyquin is good or harmless, it's that people have been feeding fish with foods, including Northfin, with it for years...without apparent negative effects (and lots of positive ones).

To get practical: So what are folks supposed to do? Switch from Northfin to another food (that likely contains as much or more ethoxyquin...or at least some unknown amount)?

It's not as if other brands on the market have been tested...
 
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In any case, according to the US National Library of Medicine, EQ is "very toxic to aquatic life with long lasting effects".

This debate is moving away from fish food rapidly!

Yes, EQ is quite lethal (high LD% at a low dose) to invertebrates... including aquatic ones. If ethoxyquin finds it's way into natural ecosystems (outside our tanks) it could be a problem, like any other chemical.

But back to the fish issue...

It looks like EQ itself is not so toxic to fish, but a secondary metabolites called ethoxyquin dimer (EQDM) may be. This study also discusses some of the differences between the breakdown and toxicity of EQ in mammals vs. fish: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17150295

EQ may activate aldo-keto reductase in freshwater fish. This study hints that there may be a difference between how freshwater fish and marine fish breakdown EQ (keeping in mind that the only species in the picture here are tilapia and salmon respectively)... but also emphasizes that the physiological mechanisms at play are likely to be highly conserved across fish. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22394341
 
It's not as if other brands on the market have been tested...
To me that points to the nebulous area with fish food. Someone who's interested can learn something about fish nutrition, what various species feed on in the wild, what aquaculture studies say about protein levels, common ingredients, etc. What isn't out there (that I'm aware of) are aquaculture studies on the life long effects of feeding brand X vs. brand Y: Which fish, if any, live longer where food is the only variable? Which have fewest health issues? Which issues were more common with which product? That kind of thing.

The closest to that I'm aware of is when a breeder, importer, or (possibly) a knowledgeable hobbyist says they've gotten better results since using brand x. That helps form opinions, but its' not rigorously scientific.

My take from the EQ literature is if there was something better (effective, economical) for its intended purpose they'd use it. I've read as much. My guess is EQ at approved levels isn't killing off our fish. If it was they'd have to find something else. On the other hand the unknown (at least to most of us) is what, if any, are the sub-lethal effects and how much concern do they warrant?
 
This debate is moving away from fish food rapidly!
What I was reiterating is that EQ at sufficient levels is "very toxic to aquatic life" including fish, as made clear in my references. A baseline for discussion should recognize that. Someone reading the thread should know it's an element of the subject. I'm not on a soapbox here, just following logic.

Logically, then, the relevant questions for our fish, as I noted, become what are safe levels, effects at those levels, etc. Beyond that, sure, the biochemistry is part of the science, of more interest to some than to others. The fact ethoxyquin metabolizes into a number of other substances, including ethoxyquin dimer, doesn't take it out of the equation but, sure, it's part of the science.
 
Keep digging, and keep reading, until your eyes bleed. lol At the end of the day there is no definitive answer to any this - beyond the fact that 330 ppm is over TWICE the approved limit deemed safe for pet food, which includes tropical fish food. That's all that matters here, for most consumers.

For myself, the practical thing to do is use a food that I know has levels that have been deemed safe, and that have worked for myself for many years now. Northfin has not been around long enough to stand the test of time, something that some here have clearly missed. We have not seen any long term feed trials from hobbyists, breeders, or commercial aquaculture facilities (15-20 yrs) as we have experienced with other companies, and their products.

Also, I seriously doubt that other pellet foods contain as much, or more, than 330 ppm ethoxyquin, the level shown in the NF formula tested.

It's not as if other brands on the market have been tested...

Of course they have, they simply haven't been posted on a public forum. As stated previously, ALL fish food manufacturers have labs at their disposal. It's not like no one knows what is in their final formulations, everything is tested on a regular basis.

Perhaps one day myself and/or others will post lab results from other brands for some closer comparisons. The guesstimate here that others are this high too, is illogical, and based on wild speculation and ignorance. If you still haven't figured out how this formula ended up scoring such a high level then you really ought to slow down & read what has been posted. I don't know how much clearer I can make this. Here's a hint - 85% krill.

This is not to say that other NF formulas will score as high, I suspect that the vast majority won't, but even the cichlid formula that I saw posted briefly somewhere was 159 ppm, so it still exceeded the max safe value of 150 ppm. In a food where the company has expressed to consumers - is *preservative free*, and specifically ethoxyquin free.


That, and beyond all of the science and government regulations, I prefer to give my hard earned money to companies that don't out right attempt to deceive me. That's about as practical as I need to get.
 
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And if it does turn out other foods have high levels of EQ, then there's a whole new can of worms. :)

Meanwhile, similar to my stance on some other ingredients, my personal preference, irrespective of brand, would be to use foods with lower levels of EQ. Imo there's enough there in the literature to advise limiting it's use. If I find out one of my foods has higher levels than their labels imply I'll reevaluate using them, as I've done in the past with other ingredients.

I don't have an axe to grind here, including with NF food. I've considered trying it out, just not gotten around to it yet. I'm happy with what I have. If they come forward with a reasonable explanation-- they themselves don't add the EQ, they were misled by their supplier as to its presence, they'll insist it be removed or reduced to FDA acceptable levels, they fired the guy in the lab who told them it wasn't in their product, etc.-- I might again consider trying it out.
 
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