"Common" CB Senegals vs Nigerian wild caught. Diff Sp?

[Hendre]

The fish vncouver posted is a captive bred sen. This is basically the same way tiger and red oscars are line bred to show specific traits....same like an electric blue jack dempsey. Its not a subsecies its color morph.

Saying your wc sen is possibly a subspecies because it looks different from your cb doesnt make sense we've shown various example of the difference between cb and wc. Plus you only have 1 wc sen that we KNOW FOR A FACT is a sen. So how can you call it sp. Nigeria ? We dont need scientific testing to say that fish is absolutely a sen

Unless a Japanese man went to the middle of Africa with a captive bred fish then I'm sure it's wild caught... Check the attachments in the quoted post..

Sp "Nigeria" is just something I've made up now, not to say it'll become a thing.

I agree on the cichlids thing, but without genetic testing how can we be sure what I have is completely the same as anyone elses? Fish on different sides of the congo rapids are genetically different from those of the same species on the other side. Fish from the same region woll vary, a river or lake can be expansive and who's to say every fish in every shipment is from the same exact place? Fisherman won't reveal where they catch exactly to the world in some cases because it can be a risk of business for them.

Unless someone can get a wide spread genetic test done all we have is rough catch locations and some recognised species...

I know it's a sen, but is it the same? Being spread over so many countries can't exactly mean a uniform physiology (or genetic code) amongst it all.

 

[Hendre]

I'm not saying my fish isn't a sen, not at all. There are many "sp's" of polys like endlis depending on catch locale, why would a senegal be any different? Given that their range includes Senegal, Gambia, Niger, Volta basin, Chad, Nile basin, Lake Turkana, Lake Albert and the possibility of meridionalis from the congo basin.

I spoke to the professor about the whole thing and his theory is that polypterus are very malleable depending on the environment they were raised in creating the variety we have in our tanks and could be part of the reason captive bred fish are so different from wilds but more similar to each other.

So what I have definitely isn't a subspecies I accept that. But looking at distribution and the fact that mine was caught in a Nigerian river then I put my finger on the Niger river system.

If you guys have Dabola endlis can't I have a Niger sen?

 

[twentyleagues]

I'm not saying my fish isn't a sen, not at all. There are many "sp's" of polys like endlis depending on catch locale, why would a senegal be any different? Given that their range includes Senegal, Gambia, Niger, Volta basin, Chad, Nile basin, Lake Turkana, Lake Albert and the possibility of meridionalis from the congo basin.

I spoke to the professor about the whole thing and his theory is that polypterus are very malleable depending on the environment they were raised in creating the variety we have in our tanks and could be part of the reason captive bred fish are so different from wilds but more similar to each other.

So what I have definitely isn't a subspecies I accept that. But looking at distribution and the fact that mine was caught in a Nigerian river then I put my finger on the Niger river system.

If you guys have Dabola endlis can't I have a Niger sen?

Yes you can. Its not the local of the fish where the debate arose, its the fact you want to say it's a subspecies because the tail looks different. Just like you are saying different fish from different locals can have different dna profiles, it's also possible that they can be the exact same across many different locals. You can say you have a Nigerian sen. It's just not a subspecies because of it. Do you know for certain the catch local?

 

[Hendre]

Yes you can. Its not the local of the fish where the debate arose, its the fact you want to say it's a subspecies because the tail looks different. Just like you are saying different fish from different locals can have different dna profiles, it's also possible that they can be the exact same across many different locals. You can say you have a Nigerian sen. It's just not a subspecies because of it. Do you know for certain the catch local?

I was wrong there, I had some long discussion about it and it's the best explanation for the differences between everything, polys may just be heavily influenced by their environment

Not subspecies, just sp

It's Nigerian river caught, only river with sens in Nigeria is the niger...

 

[Mighty Wizard]

I know it's a sen, but is it the same? Being spread over so many countries can't exactly mean a uniform physiology (or genetic code) amongst it all.

This is exactly what I've been getting at. There are bound to be colonies genetically distinct enough to be called subspecies.

Yes you can. Its not the local of the fish where the debate arose, its the fact you want to say it's a subspecies because the tail looks different. Just like you are saying different fish from different locals can have different dna profiles, it's also possible that they can be the exact same across many different locals. You can say you have a Nigerian sen. It's just not a subspecies because of it. Do you know for certain the catch local?

Actully that's wrong. If two colonies are seperated by great enough distances, for an adequate amount of time, their DNA profiles will never be the same. It's impossible. If the two colonies are seperate, then they will also be distinct. Cause and effect. Any similarity they share will be from before the two colonies split.

Oh and for the record, those weren't insults
magpie

 

[jaws7777]

"Unless a Japanese man went to the middle of Africa with a captive bred fish then I'm sure it's wild caught... Check the attachments in the quoted post"

Im losing u....theres no doubt you have a wc sen. This is like saying a long fin sen is a subsoecies of sen...it is not...its been line bred to enhance specific traits (long fins)

"Sp "Nigeria" is just something I've made up now, not to say it'll become a thing"

No it should not become a thing. Its a wild caught sen.


"I know it's a sen, but is it the same? Being spread over so many countries can't exactly mean a uniform physiology (or genetic code) amongst it all"

Your losing us with this. What are ypu comparing your wc sen to ?


"I'm not saying my fish isn't a sen, not at all. There are many "sp's" of polys like endlis depending on catch locale, why would a senegal be any different"

"Not subspecies, just sp

It's Nigerian river caught, only river with sens in Nigeria is the niger..."

There are no sp. Endlis. Because we know its an endli. We refer to endlis by there catch location only because of the slight differences between them, ehich allows someone who hasnt kept endlis but is maybe researching them and trying to decide which one to get based off of these small diferences.

Your fish cant be an sp because we know the species. Sp.dabola CAN be an sp. Because we do not know the exact species...it hasnt been described yet.

You can refer to your sen as senegalus "nigerian" if you want it to sound fancier bit why ? What are we saying by referring to it this way ? That its different from what ?

Yes you can. Its not the local of the fish where the debate arose, its the fact you want to say it's a subspecies because the tail looks different. Just like you are saying different fish from different locals can have different dna profiles, it's also possible that they can be the exact same across many different locals. You can say you have a Nigerian sen. It's just not a subspecies because of it. Do you know for certain the catch local?

I pass the baton of reasoning to you...im worn out lol

 

[twentyleagues]

I was wrong there, I had some long discussion about it and it's the best explanation for the differences between everything, polys may just be heavily influenced by their environment

Not subspecies, just sp

It's Nigerian river caught, only river with sens in Nigeria is the niger...

I'm not sure you can. Because the senegal is the sp right?

So I guess you'd actually say you have a Nigerian polypterus senegal.... I'm not really good with this and my better half that could tell me is at a marathon today and tomorrow so someone else will have to chime in.

 

[jaws7777]

Just because there can be differences in underscribed fish somewhere in africa doesnt mean that fish we know of and have been studied are subspecies or should be labeled with fancier type of names. This is surely possible of any fish or species of animal.

twentyleagues good luck god speed brother lol

 

[Hendre]

Im losing u....theres no doubt you have a wc sen. This is like saying a long fin sen is a subsoecies of sen...it is not...its been line bred to enhance specific traits (long fins)

There were other photos attached of a collection trip in Africa

I didn't really take note of the other fancy smancy things. There's a flashy variety of any fish in the hobby these days...

Your losing us with this. What are ypu comparing your wc sen to ?

Is this sen the same as the others? I'm now wondering how the populations differ haha

Your fish cant be an sp because we know the species. Sp.dabola CAN be an sp. Because we do not know the exact species...it hasnt been described yet.

You can refer to your sen as senegalus "nigerian" if you want it to sound fancier bit why ? What are we saying by referring to it this way ? That its different from what ?

Makes sense you guys! I often just refer to her as a Nigerian sen anyway

Just because there can be differences in underscored fish somewhere in africa doesnt mean that fish we know of and have been srudies are subspecies or should be labeled with fancier type of names. This is surely possible of any fish or species of animal.

twentyleagues good luck god speed brother lol

Polys are just a popular taxanomic nightmare

I get where you people are coming from

 

[twentyleagues]

This is exactly what I've been getting at. There are bound to be colonies genetically distinct enough to be called subspecies.


Actully that's wrong. If two colonies are seperated by great enough distances, for an adequate amount of time, their DNA profiles will never be the same. It's impossible. If the two colonies are seperate, then they will also be distinct. Cause and effect. Any similarity they share will be from before the two colonies split.

Oh and for the record, those weren't insults
magpie

So I'll go out on a limb with this one and bring up a counter point. I live in michigan it's full of lakes some are connected some are not. So you are saying a Bass or perch or bluegill caught in Cass lake are going to be genetically different enough to create a different sp to one caught in walled lake. The lakes are not connected.
Well fortunatly I know the answer to this one, they are the exact same. Yet the lakes are 40 miles apart and as different as 2 fw lakes in the same region could be. Msu has done genetic testing on the fish from multiple lakes in the region and a bluegill is a bluegill and a bass is a bass with consideration to large or small mouth.

And on to the insults, I'd say it was mildly insulting. At least inflamitory. There is no reason for that at all. We can have a debate without it.