"Common" CB Senegals vs Nigerian wild caught. Diff Sp?

[jaws7777]

So I'll go out on a limb with this one and bring up a counter point. I live in michigan it's full of lakes some are connected some are not. So you are saying a Bass or perch or bluegill caught in Cass lake are going to be genetically different enough to create a different sp to one caught in walled lake. The lakes are not connected.
Well fortunatly I know the answer to this one, they are the exact same. Yet the lakes are 40 miles apart and as different as 2 fw lakes in the same region could be. Msu has done genetic testing on the fish from multiple lakes in the region and a bluegill is a bluegill and a bass is a bass with consideration to large or small mouth.

And on to the insults, I'd say it was mildly insulting. At least inflamitory. There is no reason for that at all. We can have a debate without it.

Now thats a mic drop

 

[Stanzzzz7]

Hendre read Troy1015 descriotion of his endlis. He notices slight differences between the catch locations...but all are still endlis.View attachment 1280538

Spend some time in the cichlid section and you'll see some cichlids of the same species will look slightly different based off the catch location im sure Stanzzzz7 could rattle of a few

I won't get too involved in this one as polypterus are not my subject.
Many cichlids of the same species have evolved different looking body shapes or colours,some look like entirely different species altogether.
geographical variants of the same species have fooled the hobby for many years in some cases. Veija melanura and synspilum were once believed to be two separate species from the veija group.
They look different enough on appearances. Dna testing recently proved them to be exactly the same fish dispite their obvious differences. Both variant are now simply called veija melanura.
There are many examples I could use but the point is, difference in appearance does occur through the same species.
Environmental influence can change the habits and appearance of fish that share the same Dna, just as environmental influence can shape two fish of separate species to look and act in similar ways.
Convergence of unrelated species can occur just as easily as separation of traits in related regional variants.

 

[twentyleagues]

I won't get too involved in this one as polypterus are not my subject.
Many cichlids of the same species have evolved different looking body shapes or colours,some look like entirely different species altogether.
geographical variants of the same species have fooled the hobby for many years in some cases. Veija melanura and synspilum were once believed to be two separate species from the veija group.
They look different enough on appearances. Dna testing recently proved them to be exactly the same fish dispite their obvious differences. Both variant are now simply called veija melanura.
There are many examples I could use but the point is, difference in appearance does occur through the same species.
Environmental influence can change the habits and appearance of fish that share the same Dna, just as environmental influence can shape two fish of separate species to look and act in similar ways.
Convergence of unrelated species can occur just as easily as separation of traits in related regional variants.

Yes! This!

 

[TheLastKon]

I won't get too involved in this one as polypterus are not my subject.
Many cichlids of the same species have evolved different looking body shapes or colours,some look like entirely different species altogether.
geographical variants of the same species have fooled the hobby for many years in some cases. Veija melanura and synspilum were once believed to be two separate species from the veija group.
They look different enough on appearances. Dna testing recently proved them to be exactly the same fish dispite their obvious differences. Both variant are now simply called veija melanura.
There are many examples I could use but the point is, difference in appearance does occur through the same species.
Environmental influence can change the habits and appearance of fish that share the same Dna, just as environmental influence can shape two fish of separate species to look and act in similar ways.
Convergence of unrelated species can occur just as easily as separation of traits in related regional variants.

Exactly.

This is why I tell people I don't care much about what kind of lap or endli it is. Let me see the patterns, shape, and color of the fish and I'll see if I like it. That said...I still want an endli from tinkisso just so I can say tinkisso when introduce it lol sounds faaaancy.

"This is my tinkisso endli. Why it is called tinkisso? Well it's because it was caught in the tinkisso river. Tinkisso tinkisso tinkisso!!

 

[Hendre]

So I'll go out on a limb with this one and bring up a counter point. I live in michigan it's full of lakes some are connected some are not. So you are saying a Bass or perch or bluegill caught in Cass lake are going to be genetically different enough to create a different sp to one caught in walled lake. The lakes are not connected.
Well fortunatly I know the answer to this one, they are the exact same. Yet the lakes are 40 miles apart and as different as 2 fw lakes in the same region could be. Msu has done genetic testing on the fish from multiple lakes in the region and a bluegill is a bluegill and a bass is a bass with consideration to large or small mouth.

And on to the insults, I'd say it was mildly insulting. At least inflamitory. There is no reason for that at all. We can have a debate without it.

Only thing I see with this is if the populations have been seperated for many (millions) of years you may have some divergence between them.

If I understand many lakes are stocked with bass? On which case breeding populations used to supply the lakes will be similar, so the populations in the lake will be similar? Maybe? Who knows

I think there's a load of variables behind all this, and every case is different

Stanzzzz7 has very good points! Seperate populations could be the same definitely! But I think if they are seperated long enough it could lead to divergence too, I made an example of how cichlids on the opposite sides of congo rapids have slightly different genetics but still practically the same fish.

I think with polys it's just location location location. Maybe the genetics vary slightly between them leading to different tail shapes, patterns and colours over time?

Exactly.

This is why I tell people I don't care much about what kind of lap or endli it is. Let me see the patterns, shape, and color of the fish and I'll see if I like it. That said...I still want an endli from tinkisso just so I can say tinkisso when introduce it lol sounds faaaancy.

"This is my tinkisso endli. Why it is called tinkisso? Well it's because it was caught in the tinkisso river. Tinkisso tinkisso tinkisso!!

I think having a locale name is useful, bragging rights too haha!

 

[jaws7777]

Your missing one major component in your theory. We all refer to certian polys by their cartch location because... there is more than 1 location and there is a slight difference between them.

You do not have multiple catch locations to compare to. Just a wc sen regardless of where it was caught you would need to produce evidence of sens in anither catch location that ahow some sort of differences...and even still they would all be sens.

This is like saying "hey there maybe be undiscovered types of any poly in any given catch location, so yeah they must exist".

 

[Hendre]

What about these?

This one looks different to me, head shape, colour and tail are different. More like my CBs cream colour

This one is inbetween

 

[jaws7777]

What about them ? What are you comparing them to ? They are likely adult specimens while yours is not.

 

[jaws7777]

What do you see in these pics ?

 

[twentyleagues]

What about them ? What are you comparing them to ? They are likely adult specimens while yours is not.

Or just common variation in the same species. There can be difference in looks, color, fin shape, without it being a different species or even a subspecies. That's all we are saying. I don't know I maybe wrong but without testing we can only speculate and go off of other scientific proof and like tests. If it looks like a sen it's probably a sen.