Am I crazy? Hybrids

[Miles]

One thing to note is you can hybridize a ray and the offspring will take on the pattern of one ray or the other.. and sometimes create a few random pups that will have sporadic patterns. These 'sporadic' pattern rays are the 'ooo-aahhhh' amazing ones we keep seeing from Asia.. apparently only about 10% of offspring will have these patterns, and that is why they call them 'SP' - "Special." - Thus, they are considered MUCH MORE rare and increase the value.

When I was researching 'SP' rays that they are developing in Asia, I came across some interesting info.. You cross a Leopoldi with a Motoro, and you get a bunch of rays that look IDENTICLE to Motoros.. but when you take that Motoro looking offspring and cross it back into Leopoldi, you get all pups that look IDENTICLE to Leopoldi.. They use this method because Motoros are more prolific and have an increased birthing capacity.. I suspect they use this method with P14 Itaituba Rays and Castexi Otorongo rays to bring out MANY more spots than the wild caught P14 - Imagine if you had a female Castexi that produced P14.. and not just 2 or 3, but like 8-10 at a time. Simple business - This increases profits 10 fold.

The problem is people will be selling rays that have %75 Leopoldi x 25% Motoro as PUREBREEDS.. but they are not.. and it would be pretty disgusting if you were to pay big bucks for a purebreed and try to breed it with another purebreed, and some of your pups turn out as ugly little mutt leopoldi's with a weak black coloration that never matures due to it's poor genetics..


food for thought

Yes, imagine how pissed you might be as a breeder, buy 2 (lets say) leo rays from 2 other different breeders places, not knowing each is a backcross, breed them and get a bunch of motoro pups.

such sweet children, but still no debate on the actual subject eh? wankers
LOL

I attempted.. but you failed to notice or recognize because you are so much greater than thou, and just re-repeated what I said in a shorter, less intelligent, post..

Wankers? and we are the children?

uh... LOL is a term used by kids on AOL chat rooms who like to express their jolly laughter.

 

[Tim]

good topic till it got way off topic

good posts david

i learned a few new things today

 

[Miles]

I learned alot about F1, F2 generations today, too.. but I am petulantly reluctant to accept this info as scientific fact, because I am an ignorant child. I refuse to read the links because it disagrees with my hobbyist mindset that nothing can change.

 

[bigspizz]

such sweet children, but still no debate on the actual subject eh? wankers
LOL

Fail..... If we met face to face, I would be sir, or mr., or anything full of respect, internet tough guy... Later re registering troll. Why not just be your old screen name you already have?

 

[Miles]

Why not just be your old screen name you already have?

Because then people would know it's the famous David Webber and would fall to their knees and beg for blessings.

I hear he can cure fatty liver disease in stingrays with a single touch of the finger..

 

[mshuangchao]

Wow, I went offline for a day and two and now I'm totally lost. You guys are very fast to post replies!

 

[lincolngoh]

I see Leo crosses as well as pearl crosses & Henlei...ect

OK, here's my question where I ask "am I crazy?"
I see the cross breed pups selling as much as the pure breeds and this I don't understand (even though the animals produced are nice looking).
In other animals, such as dogs for example, hybreds are muts. If you have a Pure breed huskie that cost $1200 and a pure breed German Sheppard that cost $1200 and crossed them, you wouldn't even get 1/2 or even a 1/4 of that for them even though that hybred is beautiful (you might get a sucker to pay that high for them).

Don't get me wrong, I keep toy dogs and love them, but most of them are freaks of nature, which will not survive without human intervention. Dog 'purity' is often only a few hundreds years old in any case.

Hybreed rays on the other hand can survive just as well and are often hardier than pure breed ones. It's only pretty much looks that differentiate the price of 1 ray from another, not quite temprement and personality characteristics.

In fact most food, vegetable and meats we eat these days are hybreeds derived from wild animals. Even mix marriages among humans are common these days.

So why the fuss? Why can't both be respected and enjoyed by the hobbyist? In fact I think it's the majority of purist breeders which do not want to breed them that is causing their short supply and high prices, NOT the hobbyist who just wants the best looking ray for his tank.

 

[DB junkie]

Wow.... So Xray is th"e" David Webber? For someone with a reputation of being very knowledgable on Stingrays I would have thought that you would be a little more helpfull to upcoming hobbyists. Your name was brought up a short while back when I asked about captive bred Tigers...... Would love to learn more about your experiences with them..... IF you're willing to spend time educating a "wanker" or 2.

 

[keepinfish]

this has gotten ridicoulous, Miles, David W, Nic, Ray man, are all very helpful and if everybody would back down a little, then everybody could learn something from eachother. This was very interesting until everybody had to be better than the next and try to prove something. "IMO"

 

[rayman]

Hi,

what's up here? Calm down and back to topic!

So how is the terminus F1, F2, ... used?

If it comes to hybrids everything is clear. The parental generation are two specimens of different species or different breeds. And the F1, F2, ... descend all from this first pair.

But in science the terminus is also used, if the parental generation consist of more than 2 specimens. One example with rats:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6D-4MS9RFJ-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=5e80117e867de911458938395839c648

Here is the P-generation 6 rats. And the offspring of these 6 rats are F1.

If a zoo has 10 wildcaught specimen (for example 5 males and 5 females of the same species) this is the parental generation. All offspring of this P-generation is F1. And if the F1 of this P-generation have offspring these are F2 and so on. But all offspring must descend from the first 10 specimens.

The same with a arowana farm. If all the offspring they have descend from the same wildcaught group, these are F1, F2, and so on.


Back to our stingrays.

If you read Toffoli and the DNA barcoding study, there are some rays with coloration of one species, but DNA of another species. This could be the first evidence of hybridisation in the wild, because the mitochondrial DNA is transmitted only from the female.
So it may happen, that we have a ray that looks like a motoro, but the ray has a motoro x orbignyi ancestor, and shows orbignyi mitochondrial DNA.
So how can anybody for sure say, that he has pure blood rays?