Am I crazy? Hybrids

[T1KARMANN]

Hopefully we can keep this light.
The certificate for aros is not the paperwork required for CITIES and is just somthing for the buyer to hang on the wall, bragging rights for all the money you spent.
Buy a Jack Wattley Discus and you get a certificate from an extemely reputable man, but most of his fish are bred by others in Asia and are not Jack Wattley fish except that he sold them to you, Weirdly enough his certificates look quite similar to your asian aro cert.

Hikari have done NO research, Zero, on ray diet. Keep drinking the kool aid

People will pay top dollar for anything if they have the $$ to spare, $30k for a P14 or $1 million for a Koi should be proof enough of that. A fool and his money are easily parted.

Using the universally accepted biological definition pups from your unrelated rays are F1, In common usage you could say that they are second generation captive bred but that is something else. Words have meaning.

we all know the aro cert is just a pose bit of paper

but CITIES also states that the aros exported must be F2 and beyond

i give up with this HIKARI foods are crap its not a balaced diet what aro certs and CITIES states are wrong Frank is wrong Nico is wrong Mcdonalds makes you fat beans make you fart anything else i missed hear

if science is so great why dont they get their butts into gear to find a cure for a comen cold rather than making man made junk fish like flowerhorn and parrot fish

i just dont understand what you are trying to prove hear you are trying to make us change how we all classify rays and other fish

you would think this was something that was talked about at the recent stingray meet

 

[DB junkie]

Kept and bred Henlii Otorongos and almost Tigers, most of my rays are happily breeding for other people now. Have visited the Amazon extensively collecting.
You?

Couple of Motoros and a mislabeled I have been told is a Mantilla..... Nothing fancy, nothing has bred, and I'm probobly feeding them improperly. I'm just a mechanic and don't know enough about science to fill a drinking glass...... BUT I do know in the mechanics world you can call it a fancy name to confuse people and try to gain thier respect or a common name that is understood and people can identify but in the end it's still the same friggin part..... But I am here on this site to learn from people that know things I don't.

 

[DB junkie]

Kinda crazy how some of our hobbys like fish can have things go unchanged for decades..... Yet you look at automobiles and to see whats happened in the last 10 years and your head spins. I went to college to learn how to fix cars and have been employed in dealerships the last 8 years and can you believe I couldn't adjust idle on a carb if my life depended on it? Back on topic..... WHERE do I finds out more on fatty liver disease?

 

[Zoodiver]

if science is so great why dont they get their butts into gear to find a cure for a comen cold rather than making man made junk fish like flowerhorn and parrot fish

Not to stir, but wouldn't it be the 'hobby' that made them - not 'science' end of it?

 

[Zoodiver]

I think the real debated question here is the how acceptable hybrids are to us as a whole? Do we look at them as visual things only? Or are we looking at them in contrast of the push to maintain species lines due to more and more restriction of what can be taken from the wild?
I think both sides have points. Sure the rare color patterns are going to draw more money from buyers who want cool looking fish. And if you aren't going to be breeding, then you probably don't care.
On the other hand I'm sure we can all agree that having unknown mixed species being passed around is going to complicate the already tough task of breeding pure species animals. Especially without one central method to track all the animals.

And then on top of those two things to consider, we also need to factor in that what we "know" as species is being re-evaluated with updated methods to say for sure which species is which.

 

[Zoodiver]

re the fatty liver thing....hard to find, especially about rays as it is, like all the symposium stuff, recent info that is not published yet

Very true. Fatty liver is something most are unaware of, let alone having hard facts to back it up. A lot of the places who might be having it probably don't have the means to see it. Shedd is really setting the standard when it comes to that.

Side note: I thought the cooked vs raw krill topic was hot. This might be better.

 

[Zoodiver]

Tell me about it! Even within the AZA, I've seen zoos/aquariums mis ID animals in breeding programs.

 

[bfhslilred93]

Look at supply and demand. Theyre harder to find in the hobby than purebreds but the demand is not as high as a purebred because inexpirienced fishkeepers aren't aware that hybrids can be bred so the price is the same.

 

[amazongirl]

Yes, fatty liver disease in rays due to diet was briefly shown in autopsy and discussed at the symposium and is perhaps a significant factor in captive rays life spans, def in the ones shown in autopsy by the Shedd vets . Once established , our captive rays could be called obese compared to wild state rays.

Just to clarify- I know we all heard a lot at the symposium and some things probably get switched around in out heads. The Shedd vets did not show any necropsy photos, and did not say that Shedd had rays that had died of fatty liver disease. There was discussion that fatty liver disease is not uncommon in fish that have been in captivity long term. Also, one speaker told us that there were some CB animals that were fed on only live blackworms (think that was it) and matured really fast, but died 'young' and were thought to have fatty liver disease. I believe that the speaker thought that perhaps it was related to the diet, and suggested that live black worms are not a good diet for the long term.

That's how I remember it.

 

[armac]

so if you knew that the paper certificate is worthless then you knew you were making a bad argument, yet did it anyway? Hmmm, fiendishly clever! or just plain old.....

If you want to learn , do so. If not, I can;t force you. This is a good example of why knowledgeable people are reluctant to post on forums, Asked to share our stuff we do so only to have your kind of petulant resistance to new knowledge.
Yes, fatty liver disease in rays due to diet was briefly shown in autopsy and discussed at the symposium and is perhaps a significant factor in captive rays life spans, def in the ones shown in autopsy by the Shedd vets . Once established , our captive rays could be called obese compared to wild state rays.

Kind of high on yourself, thanks for honoring us with your keen insights. I hope the questionable company here does not bring you down to our level.

BTW welcome to the board, I see you are new here and looking to make a good impression.