bad news/good news
- Thread starter dzb912
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dzb912;2956814; said:
I'm going to get shot down for this, but I'm gonna play devils advocate..
I dont think he did ANYTHING wrong.
By taking the WC animal back, it's indicating to the pet shop seller that its really not worth the effort selling WC, especially something so easily obtained CB. It's indicating that people want healthy CB animals, and hopefully he'll stop importing easily captive bred animals, which is better for the animals involved is it not? It's better for the hobby as a whole is it not? Also, he really shouldn't have to spend $100 on an animal that SHOULD have been sold completely, 100% healthy. If he wanted to rescue an animal, he would, simple as. He wants a pet, not a rescue case. I'm sure he would have absolutely no problem taking a healthy-bought pet to have vetinary treatment should it get sick! If I bought a sick, parasite-ridden WC animal, I'd take it back the shop, tell them it needs serious vetinary treatment and give them a piece of my damn mind!
Maybe this guy doesn't have the time to rescue WC severely sick animals? Maybe he doesn't have the cash to rescue? It's a different story for a long term pet that you have bought completely healthy. Then it IS your responsibilty. But this is the shops responsibility to sell healthy, quality animals.
Why are you all slagging a follow enthuiast for doing what he thinks is right, when you should be slagging the shop?
By buying and keeping parasite ridden, infected, crap quality 'pets', and keeping them, you are supporting the sale of ill and mistreated animals, so who really is wrong here?
Anyway, lovely beardie, excellent choice of pet
he bought it unhealthy in the first place. he stated that the eye was puffy then. so clearly he must of known that something was wrong when he bought it. why make the purchase of an unhealthy animal? a vet visit and meds were almost garanteed when he bought it.
and giving it back wont do anything. most shops wouldnt even care. it doesnt really matter to them if it dies. not something that cheap. a new one is a phone call away, and another kid will be in to buy it a week later. there will always be imports of stuff like that. it will always be the same with iggs as well. i hate to say it but its true.
and giving it back wont do anything. most shops wouldnt even care. it doesnt really matter to them if it dies. not something that cheap. a new one is a phone call away, and another kid will be in to buy it a week later. there will always be imports of stuff like that. it will always be the same with iggs as well. i hate to say it but its true.
Many of you who seem to be agreeing with the idea of trading in the CWD appear to be on the younger half of the MFK spectrum. Many of those who are upset with the OP's actions are older, experienced herp keepers. I think those of you who think it's ok that he returned the CWD don't have the experience, or see these animals like the older folks do. Many of the group "against" the actions of the OP are people who've been keeping herps a long time and are involved in rescue, breeding and/or professional jobs involving these animals. I've read a lot of threads on here and I know that MikeD rescues these animals, I can think of a beardie and iguana off the top of my head, and varanio is a gecko breeder. I've never owned a CWD or a beardie or a gecko, so I can't speak to the actual handling or care for the specific ailments of these animals. However, you have to understand that you're getting advice from people who will purchase sick animals on purpose, because they know what they are doing and will rehabilitate the animal if at all possible. Now, I understand that money may be an issue here for you and it might not be an issue for some of the older herp-keepers. So I will say that if you cannot afford to get the animal the proper care that it deserves, you should take it to someone who can. However, I cannot agree with not wanting to pay for the care it deserves. I don't know the whole story, I've picked up tidbits about a beardie, then CWD now beardie, or however it goes. But from the original post it states that the CWD was sick when you originally purchased it, therefore, I believe that you shouldn't have just ditched it when it got sick again. When you purchase an animal you should be prepared to house, feed and care for the animal, which includes medicine and vet visits. I can understand if you bought it healthy, but then at some point it got sick and you just didn't have the money so the best thing to do was to give the animal back, but if this isn't the case and you just didn't want to spend the money on the animal, I think thats wrong and maybe keeping pets isn't the right hobby for you. These people aren't here to upset you, flame you or hurt your feelings. When you post on these forums you're asking advice from experienced animal keepers and thats what you will get. As stated before, it's constructive criticism, they want to see you and the animal prosper. So, don't be quick to think everyone hates you and such, they're just concerned for the animals in question. As for my personal opinion, if you knowingly bought the animal sick, then didn't get it proper care because you didn't want to, not because you couldn't afford it, I think that is a poor decision and irresponsible. That being said, it is all done and over with, the pet store has the sick animal, you're the proud owner of another, very good looking beardie. I hope you don't see this as a personal attack on you, because it was directed that way, and I hope that all goes well with the beardie!
p.s. if you can't care for a sick animal next time, look to MFK to re-home him! there are plenty of people here who would love to take the animal and get him healthy and give him a great home!!
p.s. if you can't care for a sick animal next time, look to MFK to re-home him! there are plenty of people here who would love to take the animal and get him healthy and give him a great home!!
dzb912;2956031; said:
Mike D;2958874; said:
He DID buy a sick animal, but he also DID buy medication for it. But then the animal gets sick again and they want him to buy more meds that are more expensive? What about the next time it gets sick? And the next? And the next? It's not like you can add your lizard to your health insurance plan.
And to the guy with the hook through his face: iguanas DO cost thousands of dollars in the long run. I know. I owned an iguana. But that cost is spread out over long periods, THAT'S why it's easier to do that to suddenly have to buy expensive antibiotics. Especially on an animal that seems like it's going to be getting sick over and over and over.
While I agree that as pet owners it is our responsibility to give these animals the best lives possible, considering it is our greed that got them removed from their natural habitat in the first place, I don't agree with having to spend so much extra money on them, either because of a bad vendor or bad DNA, to the point where it feels like I'm paying child support! If I recently bought an animal, and it keeps getting sick and sick over and over, I don't want it. It's not what I paid for, and it's not my problem. Now, if I've owned it for a while and THEN it gets sick, then YES, obviously it's my responsibility! The 4 different kinds of fish medication in my drawer are proof that I know that.
But sometimes it's just not worth it, and it really sucks for the animal, but until we find a way to make money grow on trees, it's just not gonna happen.
When an animal is sick, it's immune system is weakened. Therefore, it is more likely to get sick again. Knowingly buying a sick animal, insinuates that you understand what comes with the territory. I can't agree with returning the animal because you don't want to pay for it, but what's done is done.
honestly, this argument will go on forever, these hardcore herp guys are never going to give in and agree with returning a sick animal and those who think it's ok are still going to think that, and do it if the situation arises. I think that if you really want to get rid of a sick herp, put the d*mn thing on MFK, at least it will go to someone who wants to see it get better and doesn't just see the animal as a profit.
honestly, this argument will go on forever, these hardcore herp guys are never going to give in and agree with returning a sick animal and those who think it's ok are still going to think that, and do it if the situation arises. I think that if you really want to get rid of a sick herp, put the d*mn thing on MFK, at least it will go to someone who wants to see it get better and doesn't just see the animal as a profit.
Shipoffools, you have made some very good points.
However it seems you are saying that those who are younger don't have any valuable input into the situation? If your not saying that, then forgive me, it's just what I am getting from your post. I am not taking anything away from those who are knowledgable, I can and will name some who spring to mind. MikeD, as you have said is experience with rescue's/rescueing, Varanio knows his stuff with the monitors, and Coura and Minguel who know their stuff with the turtles, and Kat with T's, although there are plenty more. When I think of these people, I don't think of their age, I think of their knowledge. I myself know people who haven't been in the hobby half of the time some others have, but already are much more knowledgable and helpful with the hobby..so I don't think age should really come into it.
Also, I don't think knowledge comes into this situation. This is all a battle of opinions, some may see his actions as right; others wrong. What I feel is truly wrong, is someone shooting him down for what he thought was best.
I only know what this thread has told me. So, I'm assuming he bought the animal sick, it didn't recover, and then in your own words 'get ill again'. It was sick until he took it back.
I think what we are forgetting is he didn't leave the animal to suffer...he took it to the vets on the intention on getting it vetinary care. Now, I have quite a few animals in my collection and I've had them for YEARS. Only recently has one required vetinary care. Guess how much? £100! I was shocked, but I paid it obviously. The animal is fully recovered now. But the point is, I'd had these animals for years and it was under MY care this animal became sick, so it most certainly IS my responsibilty.
If any of you bought an animal of a breeder, and it came to you sick, you would be miffed and I'm willing to bet a lot of money that many of you would take it back in exchange for a good quality animal or refund. I understand SOME will do the whole rescue case, and thats cool
BUT
This person wanted a pet. One that came to him healthy and well, as every animal should be sold! It is 100% the PET SHOPS RESPONSIBILITY to provide good quality healthy animals. The buyer has full buyers rights by law, and the seller did not provide the buyer with his rights.
Like I said, none of my animals go without vetinary checkups, and as just proved none of them go without the vetinary care should they require it (FYI - The vet told us it was going to cost a few hundred english pounds should the animal not recover first time) and we still went ahead with treatment as we should, we didn't dump the animal. I'm all for treating our pets with the care they deserve should they become sick in our care. But this guys animal was already sick when he bought it. Therefor the seller is not only neglecting its duties to the animals, but disregarding the buyers rights too. And you want him to keep hold of it, and encourage the seller to keep on doing so? Sorry but I'm not sure how you justify that.
Yes its extremely sad this poor wd is so ill, but if he encouraged the seller to keep on doing it by buying and keeping the ill animals he is selling, then a LOT more poor animals are going to suffer the consequences!
It's also encouraging the shop to sell these poor sick animals to newbies who don't have a clue..and I can guarantee you it won't be a happy ending for either the person or the animals. So what is really best, having one sick animal preventing the suffering of 20 more animals, or having one rescue encouraging the suffering of numerous others? You decide.
Also, I don't see where he asked ANYONES advice on this thread. He simply explained his situation before people again, shot him down and introduced his new beardie. This thread isn't even about the water dragon..
However it seems you are saying that those who are younger don't have any valuable input into the situation? If your not saying that, then forgive me, it's just what I am getting from your post. I am not taking anything away from those who are knowledgable, I can and will name some who spring to mind. MikeD, as you have said is experience with rescue's/rescueing, Varanio knows his stuff with the monitors, and Coura and Minguel who know their stuff with the turtles, and Kat with T's, although there are plenty more. When I think of these people, I don't think of their age, I think of their knowledge. I myself know people who haven't been in the hobby half of the time some others have, but already are much more knowledgable and helpful with the hobby..so I don't think age should really come into it.
Also, I don't think knowledge comes into this situation. This is all a battle of opinions, some may see his actions as right; others wrong. What I feel is truly wrong, is someone shooting him down for what he thought was best.
I only know what this thread has told me. So, I'm assuming he bought the animal sick, it didn't recover, and then in your own words 'get ill again'. It was sick until he took it back.
I think what we are forgetting is he didn't leave the animal to suffer...he took it to the vets on the intention on getting it vetinary care. Now, I have quite a few animals in my collection and I've had them for YEARS. Only recently has one required vetinary care. Guess how much? £100! I was shocked, but I paid it obviously. The animal is fully recovered now. But the point is, I'd had these animals for years and it was under MY care this animal became sick, so it most certainly IS my responsibilty.
If any of you bought an animal of a breeder, and it came to you sick, you would be miffed and I'm willing to bet a lot of money that many of you would take it back in exchange for a good quality animal or refund. I understand SOME will do the whole rescue case, and thats cool
BUT
This person wanted a pet. One that came to him healthy and well, as every animal should be sold! It is 100% the PET SHOPS RESPONSIBILITY to provide good quality healthy animals. The buyer has full buyers rights by law, and the seller did not provide the buyer with his rights.
Like I said, none of my animals go without vetinary checkups, and as just proved none of them go without the vetinary care should they require it (FYI - The vet told us it was going to cost a few hundred english pounds should the animal not recover first time) and we still went ahead with treatment as we should, we didn't dump the animal. I'm all for treating our pets with the care they deserve should they become sick in our care. But this guys animal was already sick when he bought it. Therefor the seller is not only neglecting its duties to the animals, but disregarding the buyers rights too. And you want him to keep hold of it, and encourage the seller to keep on doing so? Sorry but I'm not sure how you justify that.
Yes its extremely sad this poor wd is so ill, but if he encouraged the seller to keep on doing it by buying and keeping the ill animals he is selling, then a LOT more poor animals are going to suffer the consequences!
It's also encouraging the shop to sell these poor sick animals to newbies who don't have a clue..and I can guarantee you it won't be a happy ending for either the person or the animals. So what is really best, having one sick animal preventing the suffering of 20 more animals, or having one rescue encouraging the suffering of numerous others? You decide.
Also, I don't see where he asked ANYONES advice on this thread. He simply explained his situation before people again, shot him down and introduced his new beardie. This thread isn't even about the water dragon..
Mike D;2958874; said:
Mike, I haven't seen anything on this thread that suggests he knew the animal was sick when he bought it. However, if theres another thread I don't know about, then fair do's! I don't have an argument for that, as I don't agree with knowlingly buying sick animals either! I'm just going by what is said on this particular thread. And if theres another thread actually about this water dragon, then perhaps all the arguments should have stayed on that one?
However, knowing a pet shop owner myself, I know they do care if they're stock dies in their care. It's a loss of money simple as..of course they care. And if people are taking sick animal after sick animal back, and the owners of the pet shop are losing their money this way..they are going to go with something more inclined to earn them money next time. It's common sense for business.
When I bring the age card in, I don't do so saying that age has to do with Herp experience, I know that is not always the case, but I use age with life experience. Older people grew up in a different generation, where things were taken care of and not taken for granted. We live in a sad throwaway culture, where you can just get something else if it doesn't work, instead of bucking up, putting a little time, effort and elbow grease into fixing the problem. I'll say that I've been guilty of this too, not with animals, but with material things. I think herein lies the problem, kids today are raised in a throwaway culture and it appears to be happening with animals too, and I can't agree with that, as many others don't seem to agree with it either.
The original post said he bought it sick and he was aware, then it did recover, but got sick again. Thats how I understand it, unless that was a mistake and he meant it never really got healthy, I'm not sure. You contridict yourself when you said all he wanted was a pet that came to him healthy and well. If that is the case he should have never bought it because he even says he knew it was sick. Had he bought it healthy, or just not knowing it was sick, it would be a different story, but the fact that he knew it was sick is what I believe the issue is here. You say people shouldn't knowingly buy sick animals from pet stores, I agree, thats advocating bad business practices and animal care. However, judging from the original post and your opinion on not buying sick animals, didn't the OP do what you don't agree with? The way I understand it, he knowingly bought the sick animal, therefore encouraging the seller and advocating bad animal care. By your own account, you don't agree with what he did, unless I misunderstood your post.
The original post said he bought it sick and he was aware, then it did recover, but got sick again. Thats how I understand it, unless that was a mistake and he meant it never really got healthy, I'm not sure. You contridict yourself when you said all he wanted was a pet that came to him healthy and well. If that is the case he should have never bought it because he even says he knew it was sick. Had he bought it healthy, or just not knowing it was sick, it would be a different story, but the fact that he knew it was sick is what I believe the issue is here. You say people shouldn't knowingly buy sick animals from pet stores, I agree, thats advocating bad business practices and animal care. However, judging from the original post and your opinion on not buying sick animals, didn't the OP do what you don't agree with? The way I understand it, he knowingly bought the sick animal, therefore encouraging the seller and advocating bad animal care. By your own account, you don't agree with what he did, unless I misunderstood your post.
As I said numerous times in my post mate, as I understand it, he didn't know it was sick right at the time of buying, so no I am not contradicting myself.
Right at the time he bought it, he knew it was sick? Well I seem to have missed that post originally, my fault! Perhaps this guy could come on and answer that, or whether he got home THEN realised it was sick?
Because as you said, it completely changes things. And AGAIN, as I ALREADY STATED, if he did indeed know it was sick AT THE PETSHOP before he got it home, then I don't have an argument with that, 'cause I simply don't agree with buyin sick animals...not sure how many times I'm gonna have to say that?
I don't take what I have for granted. At all. I appreciate everything in my life that I am fortunate enough to have. Wether that be the can of coke I am drinking, or the Tarantulas I spend hours watching, every single night. Certainly some don't appreciate what they have, but I'm sure some in your day didn't either. So I think you stamping every 'younger person' with the same label, which is unfair. Whether you appreciate what you have or not is up to the individual person whether young or old, and I think whether you have the money to replace things so easily is again, up to the individual person. I have seen many an older person who is completely selfish, and unappreicative of what they have, however I don't judge all my elders the same way
Right at the time he bought it, he knew it was sick? Well I seem to have missed that post originally, my fault! Perhaps this guy could come on and answer that, or whether he got home THEN realised it was sick?
Because as you said, it completely changes things. And AGAIN, as I ALREADY STATED, if he did indeed know it was sick AT THE PETSHOP before he got it home, then I don't have an argument with that, 'cause I simply don't agree with buyin sick animals...not sure how many times I'm gonna have to say that?
I don't take what I have for granted. At all. I appreciate everything in my life that I am fortunate enough to have. Wether that be the can of coke I am drinking, or the Tarantulas I spend hours watching, every single night. Certainly some don't appreciate what they have, but I'm sure some in your day didn't either. So I think you stamping every 'younger person' with the same label, which is unfair. Whether you appreciate what you have or not is up to the individual person whether young or old, and I think whether you have the money to replace things so easily is again, up to the individual person. I have seen many an older person who is completely selfish, and unappreicative of what they have, however I don't judge all my elders the same way
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