Blue Botia compatibility

[Fishman Dave]

I think many mass produced (farm grown or home grown) fish nowadays will have a much wider set of water parameters than their origins may suggest. Discus are one excellent example of this with many nowadays not requiring to be kept in very low ph soft water.
I think the key here would not be to change parameters regularly or widely. Acclimatise them young and grow them on, don’t then swap them from the mbuna tank to the acid black water tank, but this would go for any fish really.
A friend many years ago gave me an excellent tip on breeding bristlenose which are said to have a ph range of 5.8 to just 7.2 and that was to breed them best in higher ph water of 7 to 7.8 and this has stood me well for the past 10 years.
I would be interested to know if any of the information on loaches online had been updated at all since 2007 or if this is still 14 years dated and/or still classed as valid/accepted. As we know, much of the information on planetcatfish is modified as the science changes or data becomes available.

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

I'd be very curious what Emma Turner would say about your point if she were still active, Fishman Dave. She's always stressed the following on water parameters very strongly whenever it was brought up.
For example, if you search in the Loach Forum you'll find countless repeats of this, aimed at users who want advice on compatibility:

One last thought. As mentioned earlier, the fish concerned have evolved over thousands of years to adapt to certain set of conditions. A handful of generations of breeding is not going to change thousands of years of evolution. You may see/hear of fish temporarily surviving in 'compromised' conditions, but their long-term health is likely to suffer. Mankind should not force fish to adapt to what we want, and keeping fish in such an unsuitable environment does not make anyone a better fishkeeper for ‘getting away with it’. The aquariums that we keep them in should first and foremostly be tailored to the fishes needs, not ours.

Just because some people claim to 'get away with it' does not mean it's clever and does not make it right.

And, while her point does stand for wild caught species or captive bred species that have not been that way for long, your point really makes one wonder as to when being mass-produced makes a fish adaptable enough to nullify Emma's point.

As for the information on Loaches Online, despite not being updated since Martin Thoene and Emma Turner became inactive, it's mostly good to my knowledge. The only exceptions I have seen (there could of course be more that I haven't) being that they give a (way) over-the-top 40 cm size for the clown loach, and are overly restrictive on clown loach tankmates because of supposed current needs, when many clown loaches are found in rather sluggish waters.

(I also don't know how much this counts as dated information, but it is a notable contradiction to themselves. They claim weather loaches are not suitable at all for tropical tanks, even though the very profile gives their recommended temperature range as up to 25 degrees and therefore gives them overlap with many tropicals).

 

[A201]

I doubt that Emma Turner is familiar with the individual water parameters of the water ways of India, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia & Malaysia. The known habitat zones of Y. Modesta.
The noted last quote gives her away as an intolerable "Purist" fishkeeper & quick to label others who disagree with her philosophy as something less.
IMO, Purist or "Biotype" fishkeepers are a rare group in our hobby & I sincerely respect the ones that I've conversed with on the forums.
Although not a purist, I'm certainly not reckless in my approach torwards the hobby, as Emma Turner would likely conclude.
All the fish I've bought over the years have come from local fish stores, which share the same tap as me.
To my knowledge no fish has ever died from Osmotic shock after being introduced into my tanks. Most live long healthy lives & are exposed to the best environment I can provide.
IMO, Emma Turner appears to be a little over judgmental towards fellow hobbyist.

 

[latapy10]

If I am not mistaken those look like jewel cichlid, which can certainly look after themselves. That said, the tank decoration is currently not favourable to keeping blue botai, or black shark or jewels for that matter (IMO).

As for keeping blue botia with knives then, there are very few fish I would keep with knives outside of the typical “peaceful community” list ( that can’t be eaten) as they can be very either end of the scale ie. either very delicate or very aggressive.
Very surprised to find blue botia in a tank would actively be aggressive to knives though if in a group with multiple suitable hideouts and stimulation.

I WILL buy new carapo and he will be in tank with leopard bushfish,mystus gulio,heteropneustes fossilis,raphael catfish and thats all.I will take out blue botia in another tank. blue botia will be with botia kubotai and botia loachata...

 

[Al KW Tan]

Wow.. Thanks for all the advices. Still trying to digest all the sudden influx of info. Lol! ?
Personally felt that while the purists have very strict protocol that provides good and safe directions to follow, they tend to go overboard with their unwavering stance. Hence, tend to stick to traditions and customs with hard and fast rules. Fisherman Dave does have a point on aquarium bred fishes, and acclamatization.
At times, we should consider options and alternatives in the ever changing needs and situations.
To quote Heraclitus., “change is the only constant.”

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

I doubt that Emma Turner is familiar with the individual water parameters of the water ways of India, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia & Malaysia. The known habitat zones of Y. Modesta.
The noted last quote gives her away as an intolerable "Purist" fishkeeper & quick to label others who disagree with her philosophy as something less.
IMO, Purist or "Biotype" fishkeepers are a rare group in our hobby & I sincerely respect the ones that I've conversed with on the forums.
Although not a purist, I'm certainly not reckless in my approach torwards the hobby, as Emma Turner would likely conclude.
All the fish I've bought over the years have come from local fish stores, which share the same tap as me.
To my knowledge no fish has ever died from Osmotic shock after being introduced into my tanks. Most live long healthy lives & are exposed to the best environment I can provide.
IMO, Emma Turner appears to be a little over judgmental towards fellow hobbyist.

This, I more or less agree with.

I certainly have respect for these 'purist' fishkeepers you mention, as long as they have respect for me. And to be fair, there are a number of the things Emma is infamous for emphasizing that I am with her on:

-Minimum group size for Botia-type loaches as 5-6.
-Minimum tank size of 183 cm for clown loaches.
-Peaceful loach tanks should remain cichlid-free (you will not find anyone on this planet who agrees with it more than me, as you may have inferred from my signature).
-Giving loaches hiding places all around the tank.
-Staying on top of tank maintenance at all times if you want healthy loaches. Her recommendation of minimum 25% weekly water replacements is erroneous (because, of course, there is no 'one size fits all'), but her point on water quality stands.

But, with that said, I think you really hit the nail on the head with these.

The noted last quote gives her away as an intolerable "Purist" fishkeeper & quick to label others who disagree with her philosophy as something less.

as Emma Turner would likely conclude.

IMO, Emma Turner appears to be a little over judgmental towards fellow hobbyist.

For all her good advice, Emma Turner comes off the vast majority of the time as overly judgemental towards anyone who doesn't follow her mindset, and doesn't seem to have any issues making said people feel/appear like they are 'lesser' or 'inferior'.

I can't help but wonder what she would say about RD's point here, about many clown loaches living in sluggish waters, if she went off on me for keeping kuhli loaches and a Siamese fighter with my clown loaches despite the clown loaches supposedly needing much more flow. Try to make me seem like I'm something less for pointing out that clown loaches can cohabitate just fine with sluggish-water tankmates?

She would almost certainly also go off on me because of the planned stocking for my 473 liter. I could foresee myself getting flak for supposedly 'shortening the lifespan of' and 'stressing' the weather loaches, by literally keeping them in Loaches Online's recommended temperature range!

What's more, these overly judgemental Loaches Online purists aren't just restricted to Emma Turner. Quoting what Mark in Vancouver+joltoy say in that link:

More and more aquarists are thinking about tanks in terms of region - mixing fish that are found together in the wild, rather than mixing fish just because you like species A (found in southeast Asia) and species B (found in Africa or South America).

Keep them separate, and cater to the needs of each, and you'll have better results.

You'll really be a lot happier (and so will your fish) with the results if you cater to the needs of those and don't intermix from other areas.

The point of mixing fish found together in the wild is to ensure compatible living conditions for all. Mixing fish from different continents can very much fall in line with this too (eg: Indo-Malayan, Amazon, and African riverine species mxed with each other), since many ecoregions in the world have compatible water chemistry.
When you mix these species, all their needs can be catered to at once, just as with a biotope tank.

Definitely not what you would think if you went by nothing but what the purists said, though. They're making it seem that merel mixing up continents in the aquarium is punishable by ill health of those fish.

All things considered, the purists on Loaches Online should really step off their high horses.

 

[Al KW Tan]

This, I more or less agree with.

I certainly have respect for these 'purist' fishkeepers you mention, as long as they have respect for me. And to be fair, there are a number of the things Emma is infamous for emphasizing that I am with her on:

-Minimum group size for Botia-type loaches as 5-6.
-Minimum tank size of 183 cm for clown loaches.
-Peaceful loach tanks should remain cichlid-free (you will not find anyone on this planet who agrees with it more than me, as you may have inferred from my signature).
-Giving loaches hiding places all around the tank.
-Staying on top of tank maintenance at all times if you want healthy loaches. Her recommendation of minimum 25% weekly water replacements is erroneous (because, of course, there is no 'one size fits all'), but her point on water quality stands.

But, with that said, I think you really hit the nail on the head with these.





For all her good advice, Emma Turner comes off the vast majority of the time as overly judgemental towards anyone who doesn't follow her mindset, and doesn't seem to have any issues making said people feel/appear like they are 'lesser' or 'inferior'.

I can't help but wonder what she would say about RD's point here, about many clown loaches living in sluggish waters, if she went off on me for keeping kuhli loaches and a Siamese fighter with my clown loaches despite the clown loaches supposedly needing much more flow. Try to make me seem like I'm something less for pointing out that clown loaches can cohabitate just fine with sluggish-water tankmates?

She would almost certainly also go off on me because of the planned stocking for my 473 liter. I could foresee myself getting flak for supposedly 'shortening the lifespan of' and 'stressing' the weather loaches, by literally keeping them in Loaches Online's recommended temperature range!

What's more, these overly judgemental Loaches Online purists aren't just restricted to Emma Turner. Quoting what Mark in Vancouver+joltoy say in that link:




The point of mixing fish found together in the wild is to ensure compatible living conditions for all. Mixing fish from different continents can very much fall in line with this too (eg: Indo-Malayan, Amazon, and African riverine species mxed with each other), since many ecoregions in the world have compatible water chemistry.
When you mix these species, all their needs can be catered to at once, just as with a biotope tank.

Definitely not what you would think if you went by nothing but what the purists said, though. They're making it seem that merel mixing up continents in the aquarium is punishable by ill health of those fish.

All things considered, the purists on Loaches Online should really step off their high horses.

Good points.., my sentiments exactly. MultipleTankSyndrome, you already are better than her. Taking not only the purists helpful viewpoints, but the experiences of others, as well as your own. We adept and adopt..
Just like the temperament and compatibility of our fish, there should be no hard and fast rule.

 

[MultipleTankSyndrome]

Thanks! So many people on Loaches Online vew MonsterFishKeepers as the following:

As far as I'm concerned, most of the people on Monster Fishkeepers just turn the hobby into an aquatic p*ssing contest. This guy's just trying to up the ante.

Some people............. - Loaches Online Forum

While the tank in question is definitely a bad one, the irony in that statement is notable. We're the ones pointing out the flaws in their overboard purism and they don't even have the guts to cut back on it.

 

[Al KW Tan]

Thanks! So many people on Loaches Online vew MonsterFishKeepers as the following:

Some people............. - Loaches Online Forum

While the tank in question is definitely a bad one, the irony in that statement is notable. We're the ones pointing out the flaws in their overboard purism and they don't even have the guts to cut back on it.

I say.. Let's leave those mfk bashers be. Can't take the battle to their turf, and expect a favorable outcome. Peace unto them and all their ideals. ?

 

[fishdance]

Haven't read all the comments on this thread but B. modesta is extremely aggressive, kills most tank mates and swims upstream any chance it gets so enters canisters, HOB filters, overflow pipes, up into overhead filters. It just swims up any water flows.

Fairly straightforward to hormone induce. (Similar to clown loach).

Have to agree that MFK has declined considerably in recent years.