cross breeding.

[mshuangchao]

yer then we can have rays for 2ft tanks!

like handbag dogs. bred to be as small as possible.
dosent matter if its bad for the rays, like english bull dogs, bred and bred, inter bred to get a flatter face and the more perfect bull dog look. dosent matter that they carnt f**king walk and have ALOT of health problems.
there are alot of things we cross breed and selective breed that we shouldent but ppl do.

next youll be telling me that in the wild they interbreed, farther x daughter, mother x son ect. so are you going to do it if you have a mother and son that look nice?

I totally agree with what you mentioned about the dogs, it's VERY sad...
It's the unfortunate truth that quite a portion of dog keepers only care about the outer looks of a dog and this has caused so many disasterous outcomes.
Well, I'm sure there is no need to mention another's mother and son, it's a friendly debate, right? My point on this is though they do interbreed in the wild, it is to a VERY LIMITED extent, too small to cause major problems in the gene pool. Sadly, this is not the case with selective breeding.

 

[T1KARMANN]

my opinion is to much so called SP rays are entering the market

inter breeding brother to sister is also taking place people don't think twice about buying a male and female from the same breeder even from the same litter of pups

its up to people what they do

 

[lincolngoh]

Yes hybridizing does occur in the wild, but to a very limited extent and restricted to certain geographical locations.
I'm not flaming at those who practice this, but I personally immensly dislike cross-breeds and selectively bred fishes like flower horns, blood parrots, koi, goldfish, guppies etc.
Personal opinion.

Evolution is mutant hybridization. You wish to revert back to an African, a Neanderthal, an ape or further back to an amoeba, before you are pure enough?

How about the chicken, beef, lamb, wheat, corn, most vegetables, most fruits, honey from bees and rice, which are ALL derived from man made mutant crossbreeds/hybreeds of their natural cousins.

In fact English, the language you are expressing yourself in is also a bastard language of many older and existing ones.

 

[mshuangchao]

Evolution is mutant hybridization. You wish to revert back to an African, a Neanderthal, an ape or further back to an amoeba, before you are pure enough?

How about the chicken, beef, lamb, wheat, corn, potatoes, most vegetables, most fruits, honey from bees and rice, which are ALL derived from man made mutant crossbreeds/hybreeds of their natural cousins.

In fact English, the language you are expressing yourself in is also a bastard language of many older and existing ones.

With food items intended for human consumption, quantity is the major concern, this is not the case with rays.
It is true what u say about English, but it's a language, we are discussing about cross breeding rays, not languages.

 

[DavidW]

Evolution is mutant hybridization.

that's an occasional part of the process but not the whole picture, but then for 40% of Americans there is no such thing as evolution!

 

[amazongirl]

The scientist in me thinks that we need to be more careful to state what is opinion and what is fact. There are so many statements in this thread that are just plain wrong, or that you have absolutely no way of being certain of.

In the wild, hybridization probably does occasionally occur, but most of these individuals are probably weeded out of the population over time. There are species whose ranges overlap where hybridization is not a big issue. Why- because the wild environment is not like your fish tank at home. Rays have different cues to stimulate breeding seasons, find a mate, etc., that do not exist in your home aquarium. They may segregate themselves by water type, time of day that they breed, the area of the river where they live/breed, etc, etc, etc. In your home tank this is not an option.

Honestly, the hobby will never reintroduce rays to the wild even if they were to go extinct, so in my opinion it's not worth worrying about. If you wanted to be able to serve as a potential safety net for the wild population there are a whole bunch of things that you'd need to be doing that you are not, and honestly, I don't see it happening.

I think David's point about what kind of an animal you are producing is valid. We are learning more and more about rays in the wild and scientist are discovering that different species have different litter sizes and diets, among countless other things. You do run the risk of creating a ray that will not do well. More likely initially your hybrids will do alright (or the ray will die) so you'll be lulled into a false sense of security, but what about several generations down the line? I strongly suspect that in 20-30 years that if these animals are still in the hobby that there will be a lot of health problems with most of the population if things continue on this way, which I think they will.

Now, keep in mind that (in my opinion) one of these days the exportation of these rays will become more restrictive. They might be CITES listed this year, maybe in 10. Other countries might follow Brazil's lead. Brazil might do away with the quota and no longer allow export. They may even cease to exist in the wild. The thing that you should worry about is how are you going to maintain your ability to house these animals in 30 years if/when you can no longer get them from the wild and the captive population is crashing. More of you should be thinking about this because I think it will happen. I think there should be more focus on maintaining genetic diversity and maintaining species, seperate from the hybrid population. Your fish tank is not evolution at work.

I know there are some of you dedicated to this, and I commend you!

 

[keepinfish]

but then for 40% of Americans there is no such thing as evolution!

hmmm, i am in the 40% then read below

The scientist in me thinks that we need to be more careful to state what is opinion and what is fact.

most of the stuff in this thread is exactly that... Opinions, not facts....lol kinda like evolution in general.


very intersting post btw.

 

[DavidW]

hmmm, i am in the 40% then read below



most of the stuff in this thread is exactly that... Opinions, not facts....lol kinda like evolution in general.


very intersting post btw.

If Evolution is just an opinion then so is whether or not your computer works or if there is such a thing as gravity, as the same body of science/reasoning and logic essentially produced both, but I see you using your computer and not falling UP when you trip!
LOL
however, that is a discussion that is frowned upon at MFK so maybe better not to go there in this thread

 

[ShadowStryder]

If Evolution is just an opinion then so is whether or not your computer works or if there is such a thing as gravity, as the same body of science/reasoning and logic essentially produced both, but I see you using your computer and not falling UP when you trip!
LOL
however, that is a discussion that is frowned upon at MFK so maybe better not to go there in this thread

LOL Best not tread those waters, that is a sore subject for some on this board.

In my opinion the decimation of rays and other Amazonian life has a lot more to worry about
with the destruction of their habitat, the killing of them as a nuisance and pollution, than the few
that are exported for the aquarium trade. They need to clean up their own back yard before blaming
the hobbyist trade.

 

[Tom]

Now, keep in mind that (in my opinion) one of these days the exportation of these rays will become more restrictive. They might be CITES listed this year, maybe in 10. Other countries might follow Brazil's lead. Brazil might do away with the quota and no longer allow export. They may even cease to exist in the wild. The thing that you should worry about is how are you going to maintain your ability to house these animals in 30 years if/when you can no longer get them from the wild and the captive population is crashing. More of you should be thinking about this because I think it will happen. I think there should be more focus on maintaining genetic diversity and maintaining species, seperate from the hybrid population. Your fish tank is not evolution at work.

I know there are some of you dedicated to this, and I commend you!

Thank you!!!!