Death curl -- Pics? Signs?
- Thread starter PinkLady
- Start date
Why would that be having an issue now when she's an adult at 11" wide? There also was never any hole, dent, or any kind of mark there before. Here's a pic of her stomach about a month prior:
Bought various medications today, one for external parasitic/fungal/protozoan infections and one for internal parasites. The most obvious signs are external so that's the course I decided to take first. Took her out and put her into a plastic tub filled with water from her tank and the appropriate amount of medication added to the water per the directions. Let her remain in the tub for 30 minutes while I did a 50% water change in the tank and dosed it accordingly with the medication liquid, then put her back once all was settled and diluted. I already see a huge difference in the belly wound and the other 2 tiny spots I started noticing on her back -- they went from white with red edges to being gray like her skin and no irritation/redness, so obviously it must be working and killing whatever caused it.
I picked up the CaribSea aragonite sand again for her since she obviously liked it and did well on it previously, although this time I bought the Arag-Alive reef sand with living bioorganisms in it (should survive well since my tank is heavy brackish). It's just as soft and made of the same stuff but FAR less dusty and the particles are slightly bigger/heavier and won't get kicked up and clog the filters. I bought just one bag and did a thin layer on the bottom after removing her (before the water change), and since she's been back in, she's seemed EXTREMELY thrilled with having her familiar sand back again. She's been exploring, rooting, sifting, burying herself, and far more active and content than she's been in the past couple weeks. I haven't seen her upside down even once in the last 24 hours. She also ate one whole jumbo shrimp in one sitting, which is a marked improvement from the little tidbits she's been picking at for the past few weeks. I did buy two new foods: Silversides and "Marine Cuisine", which is a mix of brine shrimp, krill, bloodworms, etc. formed into cubes and kept frozen. She snubbed the silversides both times I offered, but kind of nibbled at the Marine Cuisine cube -- so I'm hoping that means she likes it and will be open to eating them.
I e-mailed Peter Piermarini, the Ph.D. that did the research on sabinas posted in the articles from Univ. of Florida, which are the top results when you Google "Atlantic Stingray". I asked him some questions about his experience in their captive care since most info on the web is in regard to their life in the wild. He replied and gave me some good info -- he mentions that sabinas are not very opportunistic feeders and do not vary their diet much, unlike many freshwater rays. He says they primarily stick to snails, crayfish, and small shrimp (including ghost shrimp, which she did eat for me before) -- which is why she's refused pretty much everything else I've tried. He says she would obviously much prefer live vs. dead food if I can find it, although I'm not sure where I would track down crayfish other than those $20 blue/purple ones sold as pets at the LFS? He also mentioned that while she would do fine health-wise on a barebottom tank, she would much prefer a soft, sandy substrate, which probably explains why she's so happy that I put that similar aragonite stuff back in her tank. I'm hoping this leads to better days and bouncing back to her old self.
The last thing Dr. Piermarini mentioned was in regard to the biological filtration bacteria:
What is this referring to? There was nothing mentioned on any of the canister filters I looked at that said whether one was specifically intended for saltwater or freshwater, thus I assumed that everything contained within it (including the media for positive bacteria to grow) would be suitable for either setup. How would I encourage more positive bacteria growth in a brackish environment? I have biomedia in all 3 filters to encourage this, and now the new live sand encourages it as well. Is there something you can buy, like a water additive that would help this process? I cycled the tank for 2-3 weeks before buying the ray and was told this was sufficient time to get the bio conditions going, but now I'm not so sure that it worked the way it should have. What about floating live plants, are there any suited to a brackish environment?
I picked up the CaribSea aragonite sand again for her since she obviously liked it and did well on it previously, although this time I bought the Arag-Alive reef sand with living bioorganisms in it (should survive well since my tank is heavy brackish). It's just as soft and made of the same stuff but FAR less dusty and the particles are slightly bigger/heavier and won't get kicked up and clog the filters. I bought just one bag and did a thin layer on the bottom after removing her (before the water change), and since she's been back in, she's seemed EXTREMELY thrilled with having her familiar sand back again. She's been exploring, rooting, sifting, burying herself, and far more active and content than she's been in the past couple weeks. I haven't seen her upside down even once in the last 24 hours. She also ate one whole jumbo shrimp in one sitting, which is a marked improvement from the little tidbits she's been picking at for the past few weeks. I did buy two new foods: Silversides and "Marine Cuisine", which is a mix of brine shrimp, krill, bloodworms, etc. formed into cubes and kept frozen. She snubbed the silversides both times I offered, but kind of nibbled at the Marine Cuisine cube -- so I'm hoping that means she likes it and will be open to eating them.
I e-mailed Peter Piermarini, the Ph.D. that did the research on sabinas posted in the articles from Univ. of Florida, which are the top results when you Google "Atlantic Stingray". I asked him some questions about his experience in their captive care since most info on the web is in regard to their life in the wild. He replied and gave me some good info -- he mentions that sabinas are not very opportunistic feeders and do not vary their diet much, unlike many freshwater rays. He says they primarily stick to snails, crayfish, and small shrimp (including ghost shrimp, which she did eat for me before) -- which is why she's refused pretty much everything else I've tried. He says she would obviously much prefer live vs. dead food if I can find it, although I'm not sure where I would track down crayfish other than those $20 blue/purple ones sold as pets at the LFS? He also mentioned that while she would do fine health-wise on a barebottom tank, she would much prefer a soft, sandy substrate, which probably explains why she's so happy that I put that similar aragonite stuff back in her tank. I'm hoping this leads to better days and bouncing back to her old self.
The last thing Dr. Piermarini mentioned was in regard to the biological filtration bacteria:
What is this referring to? There was nothing mentioned on any of the canister filters I looked at that said whether one was specifically intended for saltwater or freshwater, thus I assumed that everything contained within it (including the media for positive bacteria to grow) would be suitable for either setup. How would I encourage more positive bacteria growth in a brackish environment? I have biomedia in all 3 filters to encourage this, and now the new live sand encourages it as well. Is there something you can buy, like a water additive that would help this process? I cycled the tank for 2-3 weeks before buying the ray and was told this was sufficient time to get the bio conditions going, but now I'm not so sure that it worked the way it should have. What about floating live plants, are there any suited to a brackish environment?
Bacteria will develop entirely on their own if you provide them with waste to consume. They will develop, with or without any help or seeding. You can't really help it; they are ubiquitous, and will flourish in any salinity in which they can develop.
Good news! Her appetite has picked back up and she's been eating whole large shrimp. I usually de-shell and cut them up, but yesterday I was in a hurry to get out the door and get to the bank before it closed, so I just threw a whole one in there, figured she'd take the shell off and eat whatever she wanted off it. I came back home and the whole thing was gone, just the shell was left! So I started to continue doing it that way, dropping whole shrimp in there, and each time she works on it and eats the whole thing. Yay!
I tracked down a place called the "Seafood Center" in the city, so I'm going to see if they have any kind of live shrimp/crayfish/snails or at least fresh versions of those.
I tracked down a place called the "Seafood Center" in the city, so I'm going to see if they have any kind of live shrimp/crayfish/snails or at least fresh versions of those.
I should add that the medication I used seems to be working and that spot on her belly is already half-way healed closed. The medication is Kordon Formalin 3, a formaldehyde solution that is effective on fungi, protozoans, dinoflagellates, trematodes, both freshwater & saltwater ich, costia, chilodonella, ambiphyra, epistylis, Oodinium (velvet), amyloodinium, and trichodina. I figure it's gotta kill pretty much anything that could have been on her and it's safer than copper medications for non-scaled fishes. I have yet to see any evidence of internal parasites since I figured out why her poop is the color that it is (diet), but I'm going to give it a week after I'm done with the external treatment and do a round of internal treatment just to be sure.
Now I'm going to turn my attention on nitrates. Nitrites are always less than 2.0 and I have no chlorine in my water, pH is 8.4 which is appropriate for her being heavy brackish. However when I tested my tap water, it shows that it already has 10-15ppm Nitrates straight off the bat -- which makes it harder to keep the levels in the tank below 30. I already have ammo-chips in the canister filter, is there any other kind of media I can add that will help reduce this? As the probiotics in the sand begin to grow and establish themselves, it should help, and I replaced the carbon in my back filters with bio-balls to make them strictly biological (they already have established sponges in them), but in the meantime someone mentioned something to me about Lava Rock? Is this safe and where can I find it?
Now I'm going to turn my attention on nitrates. Nitrites are always less than 2.0 and I have no chlorine in my water, pH is 8.4 which is appropriate for her being heavy brackish. However when I tested my tap water, it shows that it already has 10-15ppm Nitrates straight off the bat -- which makes it harder to keep the levels in the tank below 30. I already have ammo-chips in the canister filter, is there any other kind of media I can add that will help reduce this? As the probiotics in the sand begin to grow and establish themselves, it should help, and I replaced the carbon in my back filters with bio-balls to make them strictly biological (they already have established sponges in them), but in the meantime someone mentioned something to me about Lava Rock? Is this safe and where can I find it?
The fact that your Nitrites are not 0 suggest your tank may be in a cycling stage yet.. and after reading this thread. I'de be surprized not to see some fluctuations. I would be far less worried about the Nitrates.. Nitrites are killers. what is your ammonia at?.. even at 10-15ppm Nitrates will balance themselves out when your Nitrites drop to 0 suggesting a balanced system of bacteria. Sounds like you've done the right steps increasing your bio-media. a quick note to "live" sand will often times bump a systems bacteria load as it will seed your tank with beneficial bacteria you will also get some die off. To control your water perameters frequent water changes will help maintain a healthy water quality and at the same time allow your Bactria load to come up to steam for your tank. There are also many water "conditioners" some like Amquel that will help take nitrates, ammonia,nitrites out of your water before adding it to your tank. I'm not a ray owner personally, and have had little experience with them. So I'm sure others can reccomend the "best" options for your rays tank. As for Lava rock. It can be used in place of ceramic bio media as well as other such medias. It's a very porus rock, often times very dusty and should be well rinsed before being used in a system. But it should NOT be in the tank itself. Fish will chop themslves up on it, and I have no doubts it would shred your ray up. Personally I would not reccomend useing it. If your PH is haveing issues with buffering I would instead consider "rubble" often found from shipments of saltwater live rock. as it will buffer your PH around 8+ . Also only if it is well cycled and has been "cured". There is a chance for possible parasite xfer as well. dead rock is also acceptable but will take longer to seed w/ BB but imo a much better option then lava rock.
Medications can also kill off some amounts of nitrifying bacteria, swinging a tank into a cycle. To much fussing and you chance harming the biosystem further. IMO I would continue w/ regular WC's and monitor you ray and it's water perameters. Keep your filters well maintained and allow them to mature. If it's not broke don't fix it.
And for what the Dr. means with his staement about the bacteria.. there are different types of nitrifying bacteria. SW bacteria can not survive in fresh and Vise versa.. so maintaining a "brackish" set-up you are toeing the line between the 2 systems. Maintaining a very steady salinity level that does not fluctuate to much in either direction imo is key to maintaining your bacteria colony. allowing the few "strains" that have established themselves in your system to survive and thrive.
I'm sure there is debate as well.. but when rinsieng out your bio set-up use the tank water you are removeing to "clean" your clogged or built up waste from your bio-media. many peopel simply rinse it under the faucet ect. I do it myself. But anytime I have any issues w/ bacteria in my systems I go into "stealth alert save the bacteria mode!" You may only be saveing minimal amounts.. but imo thats still a step ahead.
Hope my rambleing helped clear up some questions and offer some suggestions. and GL w/ your ray very nice animal.
Medications can also kill off some amounts of nitrifying bacteria, swinging a tank into a cycle. To much fussing and you chance harming the biosystem further. IMO I would continue w/ regular WC's and monitor you ray and it's water perameters. Keep your filters well maintained and allow them to mature. If it's not broke don't fix it.
And for what the Dr. means with his staement about the bacteria.. there are different types of nitrifying bacteria. SW bacteria can not survive in fresh and Vise versa.. so maintaining a "brackish" set-up you are toeing the line between the 2 systems. Maintaining a very steady salinity level that does not fluctuate to much in either direction imo is key to maintaining your bacteria colony. allowing the few "strains" that have established themselves in your system to survive and thrive.
I'm sure there is debate as well.. but when rinsieng out your bio set-up use the tank water you are removeing to "clean" your clogged or built up waste from your bio-media. many peopel simply rinse it under the faucet ect. I do it myself. But anytime I have any issues w/ bacteria in my systems I go into "stealth alert save the bacteria mode!" You may only be saveing minimal amounts.. but imo thats still a step ahead.
Hope my rambleing helped clear up some questions and offer some suggestions. and GL w/ your ray very nice animal.
