"Designer" Cichlids

[dogofwar]

If the market for these fish is hobbyists...then people selling fish - whether they be the collectors, re-sellers, farmers, etc...for profit or otherwise - should be able to support their lists with documentation.

While a portion of the hobbyist market is willing to take these issues on faith, another portion isn't.

To go back to the wild dempsey thread of a few months ago, it's not unreasonable to ask where, how, and when these fish were collected. Wild JDs haven't been available for a long time, now they're being given away in raffles???

To go back to the wild lab thread, it's not unreasonable to wonder where, how, and when these fish were collected...and how the person who collected them differentiated between the pure fish and the hybrids...to say nothing of getting permission to take and export for sale a critically endangered fish from this place. Were the collector's experiences in the field similar to Rusty's?

To go back to the Catemaco thread, it's not unreasonable to wonder when and how these were collected....The most recent article about collecting them is over a decade old...and the people trying to collect them basically struck out...and now we see wild fish on a list for not much $$$?

To go back to the Vontenillo thread...it took forever to find out that "Vontenillo" is right next to where the Chariel is collected...but also very near to where Escondito is...basically making them the same fish. But - of course - no mention of that on the list...

To go back to the questions about getting wild fish out of Costa Rica, how is this going on when...Costa Rica doesn't allow this...

To see wild fish from Uruguay on a list that aren't from Felipe???? Who collected them and how?

How much better would it be - how much would it boost credibility / profits - to see an article somewhere about collecting wild JDs...or Catemaco...or whatever...with pictures and evidence.... than to get simple, reasonable questions addressed with subterfuge, defensiveness, nasty private messages... and ultimately convoluted or missing answers.

The market for wild new world cichlids isn't huge...although I'm glad to see that it's bigger than a few years ago... but it's a picky market... with many folks in it expecting to get real answers before they buy...

Matt

There's a difference between hosting collecting trips and collecting fish for profit. I commend anyone who does document their collection, but it is a rare thing when were talking about collecting and exporting for profit. The truth of the matter is, these documetaries are going to come from hobbyist who are passionate about the fish they own, and wish to share their findings with others, not collectors, distributors, vendors or sellers.

 

[Nemesis]

If the market for these fish is hobbyists...then people selling fish - whether they be the collectors, re-sellers, farmers, etc...for profit or otherwise - should be able to support their lists with documentation.

While a portion of the hobbyist market is willing to take these issues on faith, another portion isn't.

To go back to the wild dempsey thread of a few months ago, it's not unreasonable to ask where, how, and when these fish were collected. Wild JDs haven't been available for a long time, now they're being given away in raffles???

To go back to the wild lab thread, it's not unreasonable to wonder where, how, and when these fish were collected...and how the person who collected them differentiated between the pure fish and the hybrids...to say nothing of getting permission to take and export for sale a critically endangered fish from this place. Were the collector's experiences in the field similar to Rusty's?

To go back to the Catemaco thread, it's not unreasonable to wonder when and how these were collected....The most recent article about collecting them is over a decade old...and the people trying to collect them basically struck out...and now we see wild fish on a list for not much $$$?

To go back to the Vontenillo thread...it took forever to find out that "Vontenillo" is right next to where the Chariel is collected...but also very near to where Escondito is...basically making them the same fish. But - of course - no mention of that on the list...

To go back to the questions about getting wild fish out of Costa Rica, how is this going on when...Costa Rica doesn't allow this...

To see wild fish from Uruguay on a list that aren't from Felipe???? Who collected them and how?

How much better would it be - how much would it boost credibility / profits - to see an article somewhere about collecting wild JDs...or Catemaco...or whatever...with pictures and evidence.... than to get simple, reasonable questions addressed with subterfuge, defensiveness, nasty private messages... and ultimately convoluted or missing answers.

The market for wild new world cichlids isn't huge...although I'm glad to see that it's bigger than a few years ago... but it's a picky market... with many folks in it expecting to get real answers before they buy...

Matt

I too would love to see pictures, videos, or "evidence" of these collections(not for verification, but out of interest), but like I said, the chances of us getting that from any vendor or collector is minimal. The only vendor that I can think of that does anything relatively close to documenting their collecting is **. And most of what he collects is for his own personal breeding collection.

And as for Costa Rica, I'm sure your aware that ** has a compound down there, as well as Mexico. And from what I have heard he has an agreement with the governments there regarding the exportation of their fish.

 

[Nemesis]

Also Labs aren't critically endangered. Based on CARES endangered species, the only cichlid that is critically endangered is the Lyonsi, while the A. Rhytisma and A. Bussingi are endangered.

Amphilophus bussingi EN/CP (3)
Amphilophus lyonsi CR/CP (3)
Amphilophus rhytisma EN/CP (3)
Archocentrus altoflavus VU/CP (3)
Archocentrus myrnae topaz cichlid EN/CP (3)
Archocentrus nanoluteus VU/CP (3)
Archocentrus septemfasciatus AR/CP (3)
Archocentrus spinosissimus AR/CP (3)
Cichlasoma istlanum AR (3)
Herichthys labridens (07/08) AR (3)
Herichthys minckleyi VU (1)
Hericythys steindachneri VU (1)
Herichthys sp. ‘Cazones’ (02/08) VU (6)
Thorichthys callolepis (02/08) VU (6)

Classification Abbreviations
AR = At Risk in Nature: (Dr. Paul V. Loiselle)
CD = Conservation Dependent: (i.e., the species is part of a conservation program, which, if ended, would
result in the fish being reclassified as “Threatened” within 5 years.)
CP = Conservation Priority: Species suitable for Breeder Award Programs. (Dr. Paul V. Loiselle)
CR = Critically Endangered: A species facing an extremely high risk of extinction in the wild in the
immediate future (same as “EE” used by de Rham, & Nourissat)
EN = Endangered: Species facing a very high risk of extinction in the wild in the near future. (Includes
species on the ALA list (2) shown as “Threatened.&#8221
EW = Extinct in the Wild: Known only to survive in cultivation, in captivity or as a naturalized population
(or populations) well outside the past range.
EX = Extinct: There is no reasonable doubt that the last individual has died.
NT = Near Threatened: Species which are close to qualifying for classification to Vulnerable.
VU = Vulnerable: A species facing a high risk of extinction in the wild in the medium term future.

Labs are only At Risk.

 

[flowerpower]

The questions were valid and still are. The fact that they were all aimed at one vendor was, however, unprecedented in the same way that this thread about 'designer cichlids' is.

I too would like more info about the wild fish being sold in the hobby. In a perfect world we as consumers would be aware of where and when our fish were caught and or bred, who made our sneakers and when, and even the colonel's secret recipe.
-but-
The fact remains that, while we have control over where we spend our $, our choices are often limited. Certain fish are simply not available, especially from a collector who is going to provide you with a live feed via webcam as he catches your fish.

Is it blind faith to trust in the reputation of a vendor even when he cannot provide you with the specifics on the collection of the wild fish he has for sale? Well, yes and no.

If the facts don't add up and you buy anyway, yes. If the vendor supplies you with consistent data time and time again, no.

Then there is the case of bias or preference. While many can rise above this, some will always favor one vendor over another for whatever reason no matter what. No amount info that vendor provides to prove his/her credibility will ever be enough to satisfy a speculative critic.

Much of the 'subterfuge & defensiveness' that you speak to stems from this fact. You can't attempt to malign someone and expect a warm embrace and answers to an endless barrage of questions that don't relate to a prospective sale. Even Jeff Rapps, while in my experience has always been open and courteous regarding inquiry related to a sale, states clearly on the home page of his website that he doesn't field questions that don't relate directly with a prospective sale and doesn't entertain walk in business.

This is fine, however, because his business is built on a hard earned reputation. This reputation may unfortunately make some hesitant to ask the same questions that are being asked here and; likewise, may make some hesitant to speak openly about negative experiences.

I'd like to reiterate the point that Jeff himself makes about trade secrets. Vendors are selling fish, not giving them away. Some information that is being requested is privileged. If I can procure wild sp. X that hasn't been available in the hobby for said amount of years, why would I release that information to the public before I have given myself an ample head start.

Matt, some of the species and locations you say are impossible to collect are obviously being collected whether to supply the market here in the U.S. or abroad. Perhaps even being sanctioned for by those local governments in the interest of conservation of endangered species which are bred to meet a quota before being available to the average hobbyist (just speculation).

The market for rare cichlids is big. Perhaps more so overseas that here due to our weakened economy and their greater spending power. Who knows?

 

[cchhcc]

I didn't want to have to say this, but its very classless for you three to continue to assert that this thread is directed at a specific vendor. Very classless indeed. I've explained that all designer cichlids, no matter the vendor, are the subject of this thread, and I didn't dispute the example threads you posted aimed at specific sellers you wrongly believe I favor (curiously ommitted was your own participation in the designer fish threads!). But I won't sit idly by while you three spew your nonsense.

You have a right to assert your opinion, wrong though it may be, but it only serves to shine a light on your true motivations. You efforts to continually paint yourselves and your friend/vendor as victims is seen by everyone for what it is...... shameless self-promotion. The constant hawking for your friend has become very tiresome.

In the end, I suppose, you have unwittingly proven my original point. So, thanks for that!

Drop the controversy and defensiveness. There's no reason the rest of us can't have a simple conversation without the same three guys derailing every thread with accusations. I hope the Moderators are sensing the pattern here. I post a topic for discussion, and you guys twist it to your own nefarious purposes.

I'll ask you to respect my right to start whatever thread I like (within the forum rules) and encourage discussion from others. If you don't agree feel free to explain your position with civility or just ignore the thread. I'll take continued baiting and insinuation as a direct insult to me and the MFK forum, and I'll report it to the Moderating team immediately.

That said, you have posed some questions that may make for good new threads. They are derails here, but I encourage you to start your own new threads.

 

[darth pike]

Hoping the thread isn't too far gone already ...

I wonder if it might be a generational thing. If I go and buy a couple fish from the LFS and post the pics (after finally borrowing a camera), I would not state were I got them from. If asked, I would answer and know where the LFS got them from becuase I ask before I buy. But posting they are **, ** stock without it being asked is bragging to me. I wouldn't hide who they were from if asked, but I wouldn't post it unless asked either. Manners.

But to youngsters today, bragging and boasting is the in, cool thing to do. I notice most of the posters that say they wouldn't list what distrubutor they got the fish from are mostly older folks, while those that add **' in the titles tend to be our younger members.

Just a thought.

 

[Anubisscott]

Unfortunantly wish some species you can't just get them anywhere else. As all know, I am a big Amphilophus enthusiast and to ensure purity I would only go with **. Honestly I think the distributory is only part of the cycyle for high quality fish. Most distributors don't feed their fish like a hobbiest will because of cost, so fish are fed the minimum amount of food. I Honestly think every fish I have raised personally has grown larger and been more colorful then most adults I have recieved from distributors at the same age. Not because they are mistreated, but because I can afford to put more food into them. 5 feedings a day opposed to 1 or 2 feedings that many fish have to compete against eachother for. I could care less really about F0 Vs F1 Vs F2 and so on. Its the quality of this fish and that they are what I ordered and not hybrids that I care about.

People supporting Distributors I don't mind. Honestly, thats how we know their good is the feedback. I know there has been some distributors that were very hit and miss in the past that I knew of. It has in some respects I have noticed more people tend to like F0's on here then F1 and so on. I tend to dissagree that F0's are better then F2's and so on as long as fish aren't being bred sister to brother, diet and care are well maintained, aswell as the tank and filtration. Honestly they can be better due to initial care alone. They can grow larger if housed and cared for properly and can be more colorful due to diet and care. In the wild they have to search for food, in a descent aquarium they have all the food they need.

In some retrospecs it just comes down to personal preference. Just remember we all support the same hobby

 

[cchhcc]

Good points Darth and Scott. I understand the need to get some species from certain sources, and I certainly wouldn't begrudge someone the ability to answer a simple question like, "Where'd you get it?"

I suppose the key is in the timing of that explanation!

Still, you can get a crappy fish from a great seller from time to time. Similarly, you can get a great fish from a crappy seller. It's the FISH that's important. The Midas I posted earlier is your basic LFS special. Good fish or bad fish? : )

 

[Adhlc]

I think the poster wants you to know their source of the fish so you won't think it's low quality or hybridized. If I said, "Hey, I got this new Trimac from Petco", you might get a stereotypical idea about the fish. Now if I say, "Hey I got this Labiatus from Jeff Rapps!", suddenly most people think it's a true and high quality specimen. Do you agree?

I think this is really what it's all about.

I personally don't really care where or who I acquire my fish from. As long as they're in good health and are showing some potential, I'll take them in. Typically I'm more inclined to support local businesses first, which is one reason I work at one. If I'm after a fish that can't be gotten through any of the vendors we use, I'll look elsewhere.

 

[Anubisscott]

Good points Darth and Scott. I understand the need to get some species from certain sources, and I certainly wouldn't begrudge someone the ability to answer a simple question like, "Where'd you get it?"

I suppose the key is in the timing of that explanation!

Still, you can get a crappy fish from a great seller from time to time. Similarly, you can get a great fish from a crappy seller. It's the FISH that's important. The Midas I posted earlier is your basic LFS special. Good fish or bad fish? : )

Agreed, it all comes to care and being upfront about what you have. Not to mention taking care of both customer and product.

Good specimen, bad you wouldn't send him to me a year ago when I had returned from the hobby and was looking for a good specimen lol. I had a Midas/RD hybrid named "Tank" that I loved. Sucked when I lost him 3yrs after saving him from crappy LFS.

Honestly I think my F2 Midas is nicer then the F1's I got from Jeff Rapps. Not because Jeff is a bad distributor, he is without a doubt one of the best. However, I am unsure to how old they are. When a fish is only fed the minimum amount of food they don't grow as fast, not to mention they no doubt competed with atleast 200 other Midas I am sure. Dad is now 9" long and Jr. is 8" plus. He is thicker and has brighter colors. I honestly can see barely any resemblence to his parents. I still love the pair, but the son is my Pride and Joy and will no doubt dwarf his father in another few months. Here are your examples of it.

F1 Midas Parents from Jeff. This will be going on another thread I was about to start.
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Vs

F2 Male, Dominent Growout from first batch.
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