Dietary diversity, what's your take the subject?

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In the wild most fish are are opportunistic generalist feeders, including those often considered carnivorous, such as piranha.


"Research on the Red bellied piranha (Pygocentrus nattereri) and its relative Serrasalmus sp. aff. brandtii have shown that they’re actually generalist feeders — and not the pure carnivores they’re made out to be.

Scientists studying these piranha species caught them three times a month and examined the foods that fish of different ages had been eating by dissecting them and looking at their guts to see what foods they were digesting.

Both species are plant eaters, however, the Red-bellied eats much more in the way of vegetation than brandtii."



http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0044-59672005000100010


For most species of fish kept in captivity there is no definitive wrong or right answer, as most of the ornamental species kept in this hobby have never been studied in-depth for any of us to fully understand their nutritional needs through all of their growth stages. But the science is always improving, and there are many definitive things that we can now state with certainty, where 20-30 years ago no one really had a clue. As the science evolves, I try & evolve with it.



Yes, but in my studies there are some down sides though to having heavily processed food as the base of a diet , by base i mean 50% or more, and my by processed i mean pellets.

And what studies exactly would those be? And what pellets were being used - commercial farm feed? No comparison to some of the commercial feed that hobbyists have available to them today. That data would fail right out of the gate.....

If you know of any nutritional reasons why a fish would require something beyond the amino acids, fatty acids, fibre, vitamins, minerals etc that are found in a high quality pellet, please let me know. I would honestly love to know the answer. Not that there is anything wrong with feeding frozen/live etc, if done responsibly there isn't. But my point always has been, and still is, that there's absolutely no nutritional reason why a dish kept in captivity would require tilapia, shrimp, or anything else in their diet if a quality pellet is fed.

Ever been to a commercial Sturgeon farm, seen the size, age, and weight of a mature female before being harvested for her caviar? Some are multimillion $$$ enterprises, where the caviar can fetch $2,000-3,000 per kilo. All raised on pellet food.

As far as the argument; "I wouldn't want to eat the same thing every day, so why would my fish?"
The answer is simple, fish aren't humans, and humans aren't fish. Try being married to the same women for 30+ years, then tell me all about variety. lol

A lot of what one does in this hobby depends on ones goals. Certainly there are ways to get larger/quicker gains in growth, and/or greater fecundity in female breeders - but that does not necessarily equate to healthier fish. If ones only concern is large gains in growth, feed a generic trout chow. If one cares about the longevity & overall health of their fish, then that's not something they'll want to be doing long term, because in most species of fish kept in an aquarium it will result in fatty deposition of the liver.

In the wild the vast majority of fish go through seasonal swings of feast or famine, mostly borderline famine, yet in home aquariums I personally find that the vast majority of hobbyists overfeed their fish, offering them far more nutrients than what the fish can utilize without resulting in excess storage of fat. Anyone that has ever spent any time around a commercial importers operation will tell you that you will never see chubby "wild" fish arriving from SA, CA, Africa, or anywhere else on the planet.

Overfeeding on a regular basis is IMO far more detrimental to the health of captive fish, than what one chooses to feed. Fish are one of the most efficient animals on the planet for converting food to flesh, and from what I see from many of the photos shared here on MFK, a lot of hobbyists fail to understand that. It seems as though the BIGGER the "Monster" fish, the greater the praise they receive. Ironically those fish are probably having years shaved off of their natural lifespan from over care.
 
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And what studies exactly would those be? And what pellets were being used - commercial farm feed? No comparison to some of the commercial feed that hobbyists have available to them today. That data would fail right out of the gate.....
I have only payed attention to the ingredients in pellet food for the hobbyist really. Through some friends in my town and surrounding areas who runs LFSs or keep species specific tanks. In talks with them i was able to find that at times the very reaction to the food ( physically ) for many fish was almost impossible to not notice, and on a psychological level ( habits and daily activities) even my own fish with a varied diet alone ( more then 3 items ) made them show habits that were more similare to what you see on wild life films, still keeping in mind that does depend on the fish species.

In the wild most fish are are opportunistic generalist feeders, including those often considered carnivorous, such as piranha.


"Research on the Red bellied piranha (Pygocentrus nattereri) and its relative Serrasalmus sp. aff. brandtii have shown that they’re actually generalist feeders — and not the pure carnivores they’re made out to be.

Scientists studying these piranha species caught them three times a month and examined the foods that fish of different ages had been eating by dissecting them and looking at their guts to see what foods they were digesting.

Both species are plant eaters, however, the Red-bellied eats much more in the way of vegetation than brandtii."



http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0044-59672005000100010


For most species of fish kept in captivity there is no definitive wrong or right answer, as most of the ornamental species kept in this hobby have never been studied in-depth for any of us to fully understand their nutritional needs through all of their growth stages. But the science is always improving, and there are many definitive things that we can now state with certainty, where 20-30 years ago no one really had a clue. As the science evolves, I try & evolve with it.

I hope you weren't thinking i was implying, "feed all fish an obligate carnivore diet" when i brought this topic up. That is a fascinating article even though in Portuguese, though never really a doubt in my mind that they were complete carnivores but the observations are great. However i was only pointing to feeding fresh/fresher diets, weather plant or animal based.

If you know of any nutritional reasons why a fish would require something beyond the amino acids, fatty acids, fibre, vitamins, minerals etc that are found in a high quality pellet, please let me know. I would honestly love to know the answer. Not that there is anything wrong with feeding frozen/live etc, if done responsibly there isn't. But my point always has been, and still is, that there's absolutely no nutritional reason why a dish kept in captivity would require tilapia, shrimp, or anything else in their diet if a quality pellet is fed.

Ever been to a commercial Sturgeon farm, seen the size, age, and weight of a mature female before being harvested for her caviar? Some are multimillion $$$ enterprises, where the caviar can fetch $2,000-3,000 per kilo. All raised on pellet food.

As far as the argument; "I wouldn't want to eat the same thing every day, so why would my fish?"
The answer is simple, fish aren't humans, and humans aren't fish. Try being married to the same women for 30+ years, then tell me all about variety. lol

First i don't have any written information. This is all from just reading hard to find papers, observing ( watching fish and studying their habits and responses to types of food given ) there is a lot you can learn from just watching and observing.

Second. (1) By "quality" pellet your implying all you need is an ultimate pellet that gives everything they need. If that were available there wouldn't be any need for further improvement, right? Yet every year (or couple of years) a new recipe will come out with the creators stating why theirs is better then the previous pellet recipes. (2) Using shrimp is the only one good example due to it being a whole prey fed item ( all guts contained) but tilapia is usually just stripes of meat, and using pieces of different fish meat is one of the reasons why we have pellets to assist in diets in the first place. Many of my fish wouldn't have the quality they have if i only fed them meat instead of whole fish,or whole crustacean, or whole bug diets. I do feed my fish pellets, as a nutritional and vitamin assistant though. To aide in where i am not able to acquire that extra nutrition from the present market.

Third. As far as farm fish go, no I've never been to one, but just by reading of course their breed for size and to produce a lot of eggs. However the farmers only care about how long they live, how big they get and how many eggs they produce that's an all money based reason for feeding. They have no reason to really ( not generally ) care about the animals color, muscle to fat ratio, and or their mental stability and enrichment, which ALL animals use and need. The farm sturgeon is like comparing pigs to wild boars. you shouldn't compare them almost based on diet alone.

Fourth. As for the comment " I wouldn't want to eat the same thing every day....." thing goes. You said we're humans not fish and their fish not humans, unless the animal has an obligate diet like a koala bear with eucalyptus leaves or like some small catfish that only eat other catfish eggs, then EVERY animal has a naturally diverse and wide diet. Heck even algae eaters eat and dare i say "prefer" different kinda of algae at times ( real observation with a golden nugget ). I like to think of the example. If you took an infant child and once you weaned them on to solids, you could feed them a diet of vitamin packed pancakes ( with syrup ) and scrambled eggs for all their life. However you tell what do think the effects of such a diet would be through out this persons life (physically and psychologically, both matter ) ?


Heck, why do you think even dogs and cats ( though i personally don't agree with them ) have soo many different kinds of treats. Not only do the animals eat the treats but they at many times prefer some to others. So no its not just humans who like variety. Again i am not a scientist just an observer with a pretty open mind, geared towards logical conclusions. Please tho, what is you answer to the growing person on the two item diet?
 
So in other words you have no evidence whatsoever. Just some anecdotal info, based on visual observations. That's what I thought.

Variety is not a nutrient. This fact seems to be lost on many people.

One can feed 20 different foods, if they contain mediocre raw ingredients, or are mediocre feed stuffs then at the end of the day one is still just feeding their fish a mediocre diet.

Your argument about the constant improvement, or manufacturer marketing spiels doesn't even make sense. I did not state that one can, or even should feed, a single pellet for the entire life stages of a fish. What I said was, my point always has been, and still is, that there's absolutely no nutritional reason why a dish kept in captivity would require tilapia, shrimp, or anything else in their diet if a quality pellet is fed. I mean if ones fish won't eat pellets (it happens with many species) then game over, but otherwise ........ what nutrients are missing from a quality dry diet? Also, what makes you think that a commercial pellet cannot be diverse, and full of variety? In fact, many of the marine fish that are specialty feeders can now be kept in captivity due to the nutritional quality of some of todays commercial diets. For certain species, this was unheard of 30 years ago. For those that won't eat a pellet, we even have specialty gel foods available from a number of different manufacturers.

To jump over to your raw/dry argument, I just lost one of my dogs at close to 17 years of age. I didn't feed it raw meat, ever, and the only treats he got was typically apples. He lived a rather long healthy and I think happy (as far as dogs are happy) life. Again, not saying that folks can't feed numerous foods, treats, raw, etc, but this is based on personal choice, not scientific data. Like your Golden Nugget observation that was made inside the artificial environment of a glass box. Many fish in the wild eat the same boring food day in and day out, for months on end, some their entire life, and don't appear to be traumatized by doing so.


While I understand the psychological aspect of feeding live, or even frozen, I am viewing this from a nutritional perspective, not as fish living in nature, or a wildlife film, when in fact there is nothing natural at all about what we force to live and/or eat in our glass boxes.

I can go round & round all day long for weeks/months on end on this topic, and have, this certainly isn't my first rodeo, but in the absence of facts experts abound.
 
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Fantastic process and results and fascinating how they loaches figured out how to grab the cricket from the surface. Do you mind showing a pic or two of you fish that you have now? Just a close up of one or two?


Unfortunately my aquariums are in the darkest part of my room, but here's a video of my pike cichlid from a few months ago. I've had her for five years or so.

I agree with that, but crickets always find a way to get out places; I used to hate pinheads for that reason, plus they bite!


Hahaha, crickets are a pain. The key is making sure they get eaten before you walk away. Only large crickets can bite, and I've never been bitten by a feeder cricket. I don't doubt it can happen, but they seem extremely uninclined to defensively bite. (Black field crickets, however, do bite)

I buy a few hundred crickets a week for my frogs, lizards, and spiders, and I always spare a few for my fish. My paradisefish can eat two or three little crickets in a feeding, my pike cichlid will suck down three or four large crickets, and my mosquitofish love tearing them apart.
 
I can go round & round all day long for weeks/months on end on this topic, and have, this certainly isn't my first rodeo, but in the absence of facts experts abound.
Then in the Presence of expects curiosity questions abound because there are always more answer to a subject. so because of that i will digg into you comments and I will be back to revisit this subject again with reputable "written" information. Thanks again though you have made me ponder on some points more then i have before.
 
It's all good. Discussions such as this one are always good, as long as opinions aren't being presented as stone cold facts. While commercial aquaculture facilities may have different goals than the average hobbyist, ultimately many of their goals are similar, and sometimes even the exact same as ours. As previously stated, for the vast majority of species of fish kept in captivity there is no definitive right or wrong answer, as most of the ornamental species kept in this hobby have never been studied in-depth for any of us to fully understand their nutritional needs through all of their growth stages.

Years ago many would have laughed people off of a forum for even suggesting that piranha eat plant matter in the wild, but today we know better. Even if you can't read Portuguese you can understand the graphs and charts to see just how much plant matter the species of piranha in that body of water ate on a regular basis - not just in the dry season when times are particularly tough. Does that mean that we need to feed piranha in captivity fresh plant matter on a regular basis - no. But it does provide some insight, and perhaps demonstrates that even a piranha has evolved to eat a certain amount of aquatic based plant matter, so adding some to their diet certainly isn't going to be a bad thing. Notice I said aquatic, not terrestrial based, such as peas, soybeans, etc.

And IMO the same nutrients gleaned from fresh spirulina, kelp, and various other assorted algae, can be gleaned from these food stuffs that have first been properly processed/dried. Exactly the same, no, but I think close enough for most fish.
 
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