DNA Identification & Vendors

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Flowerpower, I have to agree with almost everything you're saying. You underscore my fundamental point about the exact method of ID.

Feeding specializations have been used in other cases to ID species too. Many of the "new" citrinellus species are distinguished by feeding adaptations. It still doesn't sit too well with me given that there are other species with elongate piscivorous forms and shorted invert feeding forms (minkleyi for example). One group either has too many species or the other doesn't have enough it seems!

Regarding Rusty, to those that may not know, even though Rusty IS a hobbyist, calling him one is sort of like calling one of those Olympians that Home Depot employs just "the guy at the paint counter!" Haha!
 
FIN01;4055403; said:
The stresses of their environment are causing them to make drastic changes.

A common misconception regarding the role of selection pressure in evolution. "Stresses of their environment" don't cause genetic changes at any appreciable level (barring high level of mutagens of course, such as in a pond next to a nuclear test site). They only "favor" certain genetic changes that are taking place regardless, more or less randomly, at a relatively constant rate.
 
edburress;4054908; said:
Only if they were preserved in non-denatured ethanol. Most specimens preserved (not specifically for DNA use) are put in formalin at least initially, then transfered to ethanol and in that case couldn't be used.

I haven't done any fish DNA prep but isn't possible to reverse the crosslinking, for example by incubating at 65C for >4h with high salt?
 
I did not mean to say all these labridens are actively choosing to hybridize, but the changes in environment have caused changes in populations and the rate of these genetic changes becomes relatively constant.
 
Chris - your original question was to test the "purity" of certain fish. Two things must be addressed.

1. The standard. As mentioned by others above, in a strict sense, the standard would have to be the samples collected (and preserved) as type species. Anything else would just be "something that looks like it".

2. How to interpret the results. Just because the DNA sequences of a fish doesn't match exactly with the "standard" doesn't mean it's not the same species. The problem is where to draw the line. As just one example, the DNA sequence variations among maize inbred lines are far greater than that between humans and chimps. Obviously different cutoff values would be different in different situations. But how do we know and/or decide?

Practically speaking, the best way to is probably to sequence a number of loci in many different individuals collected from different locations. Do this for many species, and you will be able to construct a consensus phylogenetic tree, with each cluster representing a species. Any new sample in question can then be sequenced and mapped to the tree, to figure what it really is.



Edit: just to add, the mitochondrial genome is maternally inherited. The mitochondrial sequence of F1 hybrids between two species (and all subsequent progenies from these hybrids) will look exactly like the mother, and therefore not that informative.

There is a similar complication with the nuclear genome. F1s would be heterozugous for all loci, and therefore easy to diagnose. But for any give locus, 25% of the F2 (from two F1s, or 50% from a backgross) would look exactly like one parent or the other. The best way to avoid artifacts is to look at multiple unlinked loci at the same time....
 
We've got a situation where the interests of hobbyists and vendors are outpacing science in describing cichlids.

Hobbyists want to know what they're buying and keeping...and in the case of many that they're keeping them "pure" (i.e. breeding them only with other "like" fish). At some level, hobbyists also like to have something new or exclusive...whether for BAP points, bragging rights or whatever.

This leads right into the interests of vendors, who, of course, want to sell hobbyists all kinds of new, exclusive, rare and interesting fish.

Scientists make their livings (careers) by publishing papers and endlessly debating and reorganizing descriptions of fish. DNA research provides some answers but not others...meristics (counting scales, etc.) others...and observational research (feeding or breeding patterns) still others. New tools and long careers mean that there will be no single answer...probably ever.

The plastic nature of cichlid genetics makes them particularly difficult to describe scientifically, especially using the traditional "type" approach. A single haul of a cast net in Lake Nicaragua could bring in 10 species or 1 depending on how you define species. Lake Victoria is less than 15,000 years ago, which means that the native, endemic species of Lake Victoria have all evolved in this relative blink of an eye. There's evidence that environmental changes in the lake (cloudiness from eutrophication, for example) are already driving adaptations such that present populations of a species are different than past ones.

So what should hobbyists do?

First, enjoy your fish....whether they be wild, F1...from an LFS...or hybrids. There are lots of reasons to keep fish. And nearly none of them must involve verifiably "pure" fish.

Next, ask questions. For fish that are supposed to be wild or offspring of wild fish (whatever generation), whoever's selling or keeping them should be able to tell you where they (or their parents) were collected...Whenever I see a wild fish for sale, I google the location. Does it exist? How did the fish get here? Many Central American countries have stopped or severaly restricted exportation of native fish. What is the status of the native habitat? Some fish are just plain hard to catch (Chuco, sp. catemaco) or rare in the wild. How did whoever caught them do it? Do they have pictures?

I know that this bit of research has led me to learn a heck of a lot more about the native habitats of cichlids and the issues facing them than I would have without asking questions. If you can't get good answers, you should be suspicious.

Finally, do the best you can. Scientific names of cichlids won't be stable. It's never a bad thing to provide more vs. less information when identifying a fish. Where was it collected? Who collected it and when? Keep notes. Try to spell stuff correctly (even if it is in Spanish or Latin). And ask more questions!

Matt
 
MonsterFishKeepers.com