Fish creation vs. Fish evolution?

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For those with a religious background and who perhaps are trying to reconcile christianity (specifically), but any religion in general to the fact (yes-fact, proven, beyond any reasonable doubt-- I say this after extensive reading of nearly any decent book on the subject, and originally coming from a creationist background and knowing well all their arguments) of evolution, Kenneth Miller's book, Finding Darwin's God deals with the subject very well. He begins with a systematic rebuttal of every (common and uncommon) argument for creation, from young-earth creationists to 'Intelligent Design' advocates. He then lists veritable mountains of evidence, in clear and easy-to-understand language, for the process and history of evolution, including experimental evidence and evidence from the fossil record. Then he takes it a bit further by invoking some of the theological implications of evolution, and whether it really does come into conflict with religions. It is an exremely readable book and one I think would help both sides of this hotly debated issue see things a little clearer. Honestly, I think much of this 'knee-jerk' reaction to evolution comes from people like Richard Dawkins, who is an extremely brilliant writer (and one I have nothing but the utmost respect for) but is often a little too eager to voice his opinions, which are often little more than thinly-veiled insults against religion (and in his recent books, American politics). All that being said, I've been on both sides, and I have respect for both, but I'll firmly plant myself on the side of evolution. But, I'm still learning more and more every day, and I think the worst thing possible is to make up your mind and completely shut yourself off to any new information. Just my (longwinded) two cents.
 
I think, at this point, it is preactically indesputable that evolution has, and will continue to occur (it was acknowledged by the Pope) and, like Guppy demonstrated, simple evolution based on survival can be demonstrated experimentally. My question is, does everything evolve on its own, or is evolution guided by a higher power? If it is guided by a higher power, does He continually guide it, or (and this is the theory that I'm leaning towards right now) did He initiate the big bang in such a way that everything that has occured since has been predetermined? Or did a higher power begin the whole evolutionary process and as everything evolved, allowed us humans to achieve a level of cognative ability so as to evolve ourselves as we see fit (because we are at the point where we have practically eliminated natural selection from our species)? If we can guide our own evolution and to some extent that of other species, then what does that make us? These are some questions that have occurred to me.

Another good read that I am just finishing up now is DNA by James Watson. He touches on some of these subjects throughout the book. He also shows proof that, through DNA analysis we can also prove that evolution has taken place.
 
For those of you that like to read, Genome by Matt Ridley is a good read. It is based on the human genome but touches on this subject a bit.
 
Vitaliy said:
From years of watching Internet discussions MFK is the only place that can have civil discussions on both religion and politics with opposing sides. I only had to edit one comment thus far but everyone else seems absolutely great! :thumbsup:


It was a movie quote, though I did change the name.
 
I also like the idea that all of our percieved universe is a somewhat flawed science project for a freshmen student in the school for young gods.
 
Personally I think the debate is really pointless. One view is proven by science, the other is faith based. They really don't even have any point being argued together (let alone taught together). Lets face it, there is no real proof for creation...because it's fath based but for a science like evolution the evidence crushes creation every time.
 
I can not necessarily agree that evidence crushes faith every time. Just because there is no evidence to back a claim does not make it worthless. Neither evolution or creation is a 100% fact or we wouldn't be having this conversation. I lean way towards the side of evolution but some of the logic behind creation I can not deny. A lot of people way more intelligent than us have had this conversation a million times it is pointless to say 1 side is right or wrong. All you can do is try to enlighten each other to the points and counterpoints of each case. If you keep an open mind you may be surprised how much sense some of it makes.

Just remember science proved the earth was flat over 2000 years ago ;) :eek:
 
What kinda fish is it those people have on there cars... LOLOLOL :ROFL: :ROFL:
 
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