Fish creation vs. Fish evolution?

[dacox]

Personally I think the debate is really pointless. One view is proven by science, the other is faith based. They really don't even have any point being argued together (let alone taught together). Lets face it, there is no real proof for creation...because it's fath based but for a science like evolution the evidence crushes creation every time.

You must remember that much of science is faith based. Our understanding of the universe is so elementary that we accept facts as facts or theories as being true simply because we have not encountered any contradictions to those rules. Think about how much science has changed over time.

Think about the whole "the earth is the center of the universe" mentality. Science had only progressed to the point where they studied the sky and saw that the sun, moon, etc. passed accross the sky. Therefore they must be rotating around the earth, making the earth the center of the universe. This was cutting edge, scientifically proven fact at the time.

As far as evolution goes, I believe that it has, without a doubt, occurred. I don't think there will be any scientific advances to disprove it, only support it. There are many things out there that are so far beyond our comprehension that a certain amount of faith is necessary though. Whether that is faith that there is a God that exists that has played a role in our creation, or that there is no God and we just need to learn more to understand exactly how it happened. My personal belief is that there is a God.

 

[redtailfool]

Folks, believe it or not, science and religion can co exist. The theory of evolution and the bible has been reconciled somewhat by some scientists. We have to understand that much of the writings in the bible are symbolic and is not to be taken literally.


When the bible said the world was created in 7 days, it doesnt necessarily mean a 24 hour day. Whoever said gods day is 24 hours?? it could be a day means 100 years? So from there, you could fit in the evolution theory with the creation.

 

[toxicfish]

I am an Okie from Muskogee...

 

[toogoodjohns]

I like to think that god works through evolution. When you look at all the chances and percentages that everything that is needed for us to get to this point, I say there has to be something out there giving us an little nudge in the right direction. Why can't science validate a deity? It may not necessarily validate the bible or other holy texts but these may not be wholy accurate even if they were given by a deity. All of them have been edited by man i.e. the council of Nicea, Trent, etc., for ages. This fact allows for the possibility for interpretation and opinion to creep into texts. This is meant with no disrespect for anyone's belief.

 

[dacox]

I'm with both you guys. Maybe God created science as a way of keeping us sane by giving us a goal of striving for enlightenment and education about the world we live in. Maybe we are all part of the Matrix. Then again, maybe aliens planted everything we find that leads us to believe evolution has occured, and we are all just a bunch of little b*tches in some alien world.

I also agree that much of the Bible is symbolic and is not meant to be taken literally.

And btw, really like this thread and like having a civilized discussion on the matter. Every other time I've discussed this it ended up in a bunch of yelling and fighting.

 

[guppy]

I can not necessarily agree that evidence crushes faith every time. Just because there is no evidence to back a claim does not make it worthless. Neither evolution or creation is a 100% fact or we wouldn't be having this conversation. I lean way towards the side of evolution but some of the logic behind creation I can not deny. A lot of people way more intelligent than us have had this conversation a million times it is pointless to say 1 side is right or wrong. All you can do is try to enlighten each other to the points and counterpoints of each case. If you keep an open mind you may be surprised how much sense some of it makes.

Just remember science proved the earth was flat over 2000 years ago

Science did not prove the earth was flat, nor did it prove that the earth was the center of creation, the sciense of mathmatics was used to form a theory that the earth was at least curved as early as the days of the greeks but it was not considered important. As for the theory that the earth rotated the sun, Copernicus's mathmatics were declared a punishable heresy by the catholic church.
In more modern times even the Jesuits argue that evolution is a function of God's ongoing creation.

 

[Vitaliy]

When arguing on such matters there is one thing that really bugs me.

Generally there tends to be two groups of people arguing; one side is with God and faith, and the other side is science and reason. They tend to be arguing the opposites, or at least views that do not match (for example the origin of life as we have here).

When the scientific argument comes out with facts and numbers to back up its claim, something you simply can not argue with faith, what the opposite side does is change their claim to fit the science. And by that I directly mean such things as redtailfools post stating that perhaps a day for a God is not 24 hours, or dacox’s post stating that God created science to keep us sane, or toogoodjohn’s post about God working through evolution.

No, it does not work that way, you either believe it or not. Christian religion states that Earth was in fact created by God out of nothing (ex nihilo), it was created in 7 days, Earth exists for 6000 years, humans are here from Adam and Eve, etc…

 

[redtailfool]

When arguing on such matters there is one thing that really bugs me.

Generally there tends to be two groups of people arguing; one side is with God and faith, and the other side is science and reason. They tend to be arguing the opposites, or at least views that do not match (for example the origin of life as we have here).

When the scientific argument comes out with facts and numbers to back up its claim, something you simply can not argue with faith, what the opposite side does is change their claim to fit the science. And by that I directly mean such things as redtailfools post stating that perhaps a day for a God is not 24 hours, or dacox’s post stating that God created science to keep us sane, or toogoodjohn’s post about God working through evolution.

No, it does not work that way, you either believe it or not. Christian religion states that Earth was in fact created by God out of nothing (ex nihilo), it was created in 7 days, Earth exists for 6000 years, humans are here from Adam and Eve, etc…

It can work out that way. Its a well established fact that the numbers facts in the bible shouldnt be taken as solid fact. Ever wonder why the number 40 is always in the bible? When Noah was in the ark , it rained hard for 40 days and 40 nights .. When jesus was in the desert, he was there for 40 days ( or something like that ).. Coincidence ? Not really.. I just learned recently that the number 40 stood for a long time and thats why that figured was often used.

And going back to Noah, is it really conceivable to build a wooden boat built by a few old folks that would hold a pair of all known animals in the world? Or what about the Rainbow, is it really a sign from God that he will never destroy the world via a flood again ?? Bottom line is , the bible was written by people who are not that factual but rather good intentioned folks that want to look for symbolisms that the god is around us.

 

[redtailfool]

It can work out that way. Its a well established fact that the numbers facts in the bible shouldnt be taken as solid fact. Ever wonder why the number 40 is always in the bible? When Noah was in the ark , it rained hard for 40 days and 40 nights .. When jesus was in the desert, he was there for 40 days ( or something like that ).. Coincidence ? Not really.. I just learned recently that the number 40 stood for a long time and thats why that figured was often used.

And going back to Noah, is it really conceivable to build a wooden boat built by a few old folks that would hold a pair of all known animals in the world? Or what about the Rainbow, is it really a sign from God that he will never destroy the world via a flood again ?? Bottom line is , the bible was written by people who are not that factual but rather good intentioned folks that want to look for symbolisms that the god is around us.

Oh , and speaking of science and religion doesnt mix, i read a old Newsweek article conducted a poll between prominent scientists, and majority of them believed in a God , or a supreme being. If these people can equate their work with their faith, then why cant everyone?

 

[Vitaliy]

It can work out that way. Its a well established fact that the numbers facts in the bible shouldnt be taken as solid fact. Ever wonder why the number 40 is always in the bible? When Noah was in the ark , it rained hard for 40 days and 40 nights .. When jesus was in the desert, he was there for 40 days ( or something like that ).. Coincidence ? Not really.. I just learned recently that the number 40 stood for a long time and thats why that figured was often used.

And going back to Noah, is it really conceivable to build a wooden boat built by a few old folks that would hold a pair of all known animals in the world? Or what about the Rainbow, is it really a sign from God that he will never destroy the world via a flood again ?? Bottom line is , the bible was written by people who are not that factual but rather good intentioned folks that want to look for symbolisms that the god is around us.

Not taking numbers literally is complete news to me, I have never heard of such a thing. But for the sake of the argument you are basically stating that some information in the Bible is not correct/true, then what else is false? I am more than sure that just about every religious figure disagrees with your claim.

This is another popular thing people tend to do, they take the religion and they adjust it to their lifestyle versus following the teachings. The Bible went from being the book about God to bunch of symbolic stories to teach us things, again, this is not how it works – the Church takes the book in a literal sense and that is what the religion is.