Nah dont think so, I don't think a common goldfish gets much bigger over 1'....I wouldn't buy a goldfish now knowing what I do...potential size/life expectancy/room required. Also I over exagerated his age a bit, I got him 10 years ago, in 4th grade...or whatever grade you're in at 8 years old...I was just a kid who won a goldfish who was destined to die, and some how it lived to be this age haha...I really do wish I had a pond for him.
Goldfish are Nutritious
- Thread starter sjkoi
- Start date
RD, your killing me man!!! Did you even read the abstract?
"Gizzard shad thiaminase activity and its effect on the thiamine status of captive American alligators"
What a load of misleading conjecture. BTW, the gators that were tested for thiamin deficiency were held captive for up to 10 months and fed dead shad three times a day. Healthy thiamin levels from gators in the lake were used as the benchmark to compare against. Its hard to say 7 years later what caused the die-off in the lake. But, we know from mink that if you feed an exclusive diet of thiaminase containing fish that is dead and or frozen thiamin deficiency will occur after a very prolonged time (many months to years).
I'll get back to you on the gators later tonight. There may be some other points worth responding to as well.
Still no willingness to kick it around about setting up a growth trial. My dime. Nothing to loose, right? And, maybe we could learn a little too. I want to be sure that the canned diet is handled properly so that the trial fish get the best possible chance. How do you get small fish trained onto a pellet? What would you recommend in terms of feeding frequency. How long would you want to see uneaten feed left in the tank before removal. etc... What species would you recommend for a trial. I don't want something that is too finicky or difficult to raise. It would need to be a staple of any aquarium store. Help from any source is welcome. We'll have months to chat up the topic while I set up the trial and conduct it. Since in the "captive gator" trial 6 months was enough to show thiamin deficiency and lethargy, 6 to 10 months would be long enough for a trial. Longer if you think that would be needed. I really appreciate your input. Maybe we can turn your enthusiasm towards getting some data points.
Thanks,
Rich
"Gizzard shad thiaminase activity and its effect on the thiamine status of captive American alligators"
What a load of misleading conjecture. BTW, the gators that were tested for thiamin deficiency were held captive for up to 10 months and fed dead shad three times a day. Healthy thiamin levels from gators in the lake were used as the benchmark to compare against. Its hard to say 7 years later what caused the die-off in the lake. But, we know from mink that if you feed an exclusive diet of thiaminase containing fish that is dead and or frozen thiamin deficiency will occur after a very prolonged time (many months to years).
I'll get back to you on the gators later tonight. There may be some other points worth responding to as well.
Still no willingness to kick it around about setting up a growth trial. My dime. Nothing to loose, right? And, maybe we could learn a little too. I want to be sure that the canned diet is handled properly so that the trial fish get the best possible chance. How do you get small fish trained onto a pellet? What would you recommend in terms of feeding frequency. How long would you want to see uneaten feed left in the tank before removal. etc... What species would you recommend for a trial. I don't want something that is too finicky or difficult to raise. It would need to be a staple of any aquarium store. Help from any source is welcome. We'll have months to chat up the topic while I set up the trial and conduct it. Since in the "captive gator" trial 6 months was enough to show thiamin deficiency and lethargy, 6 to 10 months would be long enough for a trial. Longer if you think that would be needed. I really appreciate your input. Maybe we can turn your enthusiasm towards getting some data points.
Thanks,
Rich
Here ya go rich
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?438447-Official-Xingu-Grow-Off-Thread! there are several guys involved in this thread all fish were purchased from the same spawn there are guys feeding live myself included to guys that have and are feeding pellet from day one the fry were on frozen mycsis shrimp before shipment ....Most of the fry were between 1 5/8 and 1 3/4 when received .......
and the different filtrations hope it's helpful....Rich, what you plan to do with your trials has too many variables that need to identified and controlled. For example, exact water parameters, exact water changes, exact filtration, exact tank size, exact trace minerals in water content. fish from the same hatch, start size exactly the same. And of course at the end of the trial the fish needs to be killed and disected. All this leads to is you need to do the trial yourself and document it well, pictures etc...you can't have a trial like Hulon is saying, the tanks need to litterally be side by side with the exact same setup with the exact same water...
Rich,
The abstract from 2 posts back was simply one small study that was part of a major in-depth investigation that surrounded the massive gator diet-off that take took place in Lake Griffin Florida. The conclusion of this research took 6 yrs of intensive investigation by a team of scientists from 13 different agencies. Sorry, I thought that I was clear on that. Real scientists, with real data, analysed by real experts.
But hey, maybe a koi farmer with a biology degree knows better .........
The abstract from 2 posts back was simply one small study that was part of a major in-depth investigation that surrounded the massive gator diet-off that take took place in Lake Griffin Florida. The conclusion of this research took 6 yrs of intensive investigation by a team of scientists from 13 different agencies. Sorry, I thought that I was clear on that. Real scientists, with real data, analysed by real experts.
But hey, maybe a koi farmer with a biology degree knows better .........
Hulon, as probass stated, that's not any kind of controlled feed trial. Nice grow off thread, but all that amounts to is a bunch of guys seeing who can "pump up" their fish the most inside of 12 months. A properly controlled feed trial has to follow certain protocols, none of which are taking place in that grow off thread.
Probassfisher010,
Yeah my thoughts too. I was thinking of six tanks with three diets side by side. 6 fish in each group (three to a tank). On the filtration I see it two ways. Each tank could have its own filter so that the water quality reflects the diet being used, or a shared system. With the shared system water quality would be equal across all the tanks. I think a UV would be important so that if disease was introduced into a single tank then the effects would be isolated to that tank alone. In my opinion that would be the fairest filtration setup. If I ordered 18 fish from the same wholesaler and stipulated that they came in the same shipment, that would be a cost effective way to start the trial. Maybe order 24 fish and take out any that were oversized or weak and then randomly assign fish. The three diets I would trial would be a varied diet of exclusively live items, a 100% goldfish diet and a diet of premium quality canned food. My concern though is the weight loss early on if I have trouble getting the third group onto an artificial diet. If they get a slow start it may skew the test too much, or maybe that would be a relavent part of the test. I'll document as we go along with photos and notes. At some point, maybe six months, I can have one fish from each group dissected professionally and inspected for excessive disease both internally and externally, measured and weighed. Then continue the trial until we run out of fish or the results become obvious. I would feel bad about the dissection, but if it may give some good insight into fish health and what role diet plays in it. I thank you for your input. What could be done to improve the concept?
Rich
Yeah my thoughts too. I was thinking of six tanks with three diets side by side. 6 fish in each group (three to a tank). On the filtration I see it two ways. Each tank could have its own filter so that the water quality reflects the diet being used, or a shared system. With the shared system water quality would be equal across all the tanks. I think a UV would be important so that if disease was introduced into a single tank then the effects would be isolated to that tank alone. In my opinion that would be the fairest filtration setup. If I ordered 18 fish from the same wholesaler and stipulated that they came in the same shipment, that would be a cost effective way to start the trial. Maybe order 24 fish and take out any that were oversized or weak and then randomly assign fish. The three diets I would trial would be a varied diet of exclusively live items, a 100% goldfish diet and a diet of premium quality canned food. My concern though is the weight loss early on if I have trouble getting the third group onto an artificial diet. If they get a slow start it may skew the test too much, or maybe that would be a relavent part of the test. I'll document as we go along with photos and notes. At some point, maybe six months, I can have one fish from each group dissected professionally and inspected for excessive disease both internally and externally, measured and weighed. Then continue the trial until we run out of fish or the results become obvious. I would feel bad about the dissection, but if it may give some good insight into fish health and what role diet plays in it. I thank you for your input. What could be done to improve the concept?
Rich
Actually RD we are not trying to pump our fish up contrary popular belief we all have different formulas for feed on how to get the best body confirmation muscle and fin development it not just getting the fish to be as large as possible at all it is to produce the best looking fish i spend close to $300 a month on feed for my fish ....And my 675 gallon tank has 240 gallons of filtration....And no i am not trying to brag i am that serious.......
Please expound!!! What do you think would constitute a reasonable trial? I am not the NHS, but I'll do my best to setup a fair trial.
Body mass is as good a measure of health as any. There are others that are more subjective, but the strongest and healthiest fish in a tank will almost always be the largest. There are exceptions, which is why I would insist on a dissection.
