My RBP is on a 100% live feeder fish diet, and he's 100% healthy. My avatar is him doing his thing. He's a predator and I'm going to let him be a predator.
Goldfish are Nutritious
- Thread starter sjkoi
- Start date
We are doing this as we speak with F1 Xingu Pbass several keepers are and have shown their filtration water change regiment and what exactly their diet consist of we all recieved are Pbass within a day of each other you might be suprised at the conditions of the fish already!!!!! By the way they all came from one man that bred them in Germany Micheal Boettner
Dude, I crave more information.
If you read the thread as you said you did you would have found my view...I find that goldfish farm bred specifically for feeders, crammed together with many other destined to be dead, or killed fish, are uneccesary in the hobby. However quarantined for a proper amount of time, gut loaded, and fed as a treat have their place, and can be quite beneficial to the fish.
Also from an ethical stand point, not really mine, ( Yes I get that the fish are bred and raised to be eaten, just like the cows/chicken that I lovingly eat) but I have had this "feeder" goldfish for over 15 years now, won him at a carnival for a quarter, and he is still alive and at 11"! Ill throw this in just for fun haha... Sorry for the pictures, just took them while sitting here
PS I jumped the gun saying all cichla keepers acted the way our friend HULON has acted, and I apoligise, I was a bit heated, and I feel my anger was misplaced, lets make this a productive thread once again...
Also from an ethical stand point, not really mine, ( Yes I get that the fish are bred and raised to be eaten, just like the cows/chicken that I lovingly eat) but I have had this "feeder" goldfish for over 15 years now, won him at a carnival for a quarter, and he is still alive and at 11"! Ill throw this in just for fun haha... Sorry for the pictures, just took them while sitting here
PS I jumped the gun saying all cichla keepers acted the way our friend HULON has acted, and I apoligise, I was a bit heated, and I feel my anger was misplaced, lets make this a productive thread once again...
No hard feelings at all Pro I like your jumbo goldfish. I have a Jaguar catfish that oddly enough I keep in my 100g. He never comes out of his log and if you have ever kept them also know they max out at 8'' max. He has been in this tank as long as the Kelberi and would hate to loose him but he is my best kept secret. Im not sure what he eat's because I have never seen him (unless I take him out and hold him im my hand to show my friends who have never seen one) but like I said I have never seen him eat but like your Jumbo Goldie I love him just the same as the rest.
I also think we all are here to help in our own little way and we all have valuable information to share as no one man has all the answers. And in Hu's defense he is just an over zelous keeper who's passion can be misunderstood. He is still learning as we all are. I don't think he means to offend anyone he is just really happy with his great collection and eager to help anyone who ask. I can speak for both of us as we are the only CREAM members left really that he just want's to help the future Cichla keepers to get the accurate information with out all the trial and error. To be honest I have alway's thought his fish were fat! LOL But I think he has even learned over time that there has to be a happy medium.
See we all can have a great disscussion with out being banned. We just need to be civil.
I also think we all are here to help in our own little way and we all have valuable information to share as no one man has all the answers. And in Hu's defense he is just an over zelous keeper who's passion can be misunderstood. He is still learning as we all are. I don't think he means to offend anyone he is just really happy with his great collection and eager to help anyone who ask. I can speak for both of us as we are the only CREAM members left really that he just want's to help the future Cichla keepers to get the accurate information with out all the trial and error. To be honest I have alway's thought his fish were fat! LOL But I think he has even learned over time that there has to be a happy medium.
See we all can have a great disscussion with out being banned. We just need to be civil.
Not going to lie the second time I feed them hot dogs they ate 4 of them in two minute's. That's when it came to me maybe this isn't such a good idea. lol at that rate this could get expensive and fast. They were still coming to the top looking for more. So yea I say use Talapia as a filler item. It's cheaper that's for sure.
Goldfish are convenient, there I said it.
Only goldfish I feed are the ones in my sump. And they have been there for more than half a year lol.
Only goldfish I feed are the ones in my sump. And they have been there for more than half a year lol.
I made the point somewhere in Rob Toonen's excellent thread "Live Fish As Food - Nutritional Value & Concerns", that it was illogical to compare mature farm raised carp and catfish to goldfish fry and that the premise behind his article was faulty. I didn't have the reference that I do now at the time, but I knew as a biologist that fry are physiologically very different from mature specimens. For one, they have had a much higher proportion of natural feed in their diet. And secondly, fry put the bulk of their metabolic energy into developing tissue and not storing fat. Do a biopsy on a small feeder of any species and you will find very little fat. It is possible that excessive fat deposition may be the result of simply over feeding. In my experience you want to see fish always a little hungry. Its the other universal truth with fish keeping "A hungry fish is a healthy fish". Interesting article though and as it progressed I found myself agreeing with a lot of what he had to say.
While I am on the topic of other posts that I have found a little odd there is the one about filling up a room with lionfish that have had gut blockage from eating feeder goldfish. Two thoughts here. First, goldfish are relatively fine boned and their skulls are easily crushed and digested. Second, if that is truly the case and lionfish actually can capture and swallow prey items that its body can't pass through its gut, then feed a smaller fish.
I suspect there is no food items natural or man made that someone won't come along and discredit. Just like last year's super pellet is this year's filler. Goldfish, the staple of the industry for 3 decades, is this years toxic brew of thiaminase and liver disease. Which is it? How many dead fish were caused by poor water quality and bad practices, and how much by the food the fish ate. With koi owners it is that last fish they put in their pond that caused their fish to get sick. It doesn't matter that they haven't cleaned their filters in three years, over feed their fish and over stocked their pond. Its that last fish, because to admit otherwise would mean that they were responsible for killing their loved pets. We need to get beyond anecdotes and get some good science, even if as a community we need to generate it ourselves. Set up some feed trials, measure the resulting growth and then have the fish inspected by a fish pathologist. RD, you are a wealth of information on commercial diets. Let's see if we can get this done so that we don't have to rely on speculation and oblique scientific references.
While I am on the topic of other posts that I have found a little odd there is the one about filling up a room with lionfish that have had gut blockage from eating feeder goldfish. Two thoughts here. First, goldfish are relatively fine boned and their skulls are easily crushed and digested. Second, if that is truly the case and lionfish actually can capture and swallow prey items that its body can't pass through its gut, then feed a smaller fish.
I suspect there is no food items natural or man made that someone won't come along and discredit. Just like last year's super pellet is this year's filler. Goldfish, the staple of the industry for 3 decades, is this years toxic brew of thiaminase and liver disease. Which is it? How many dead fish were caused by poor water quality and bad practices, and how much by the food the fish ate. With koi owners it is that last fish they put in their pond that caused their fish to get sick. It doesn't matter that they haven't cleaned their filters in three years, over feed their fish and over stocked their pond. Its that last fish, because to admit otherwise would mean that they were responsible for killing their loved pets. We need to get beyond anecdotes and get some good science, even if as a community we need to generate it ourselves. Set up some feed trials, measure the resulting growth and then have the fish inspected by a fish pathologist. RD, you are a wealth of information on commercial diets. Let's see if we can get this done so that we don't have to rely on speculation and oblique scientific references.
Rich,
I'm going to take one last stab at this, just to clear up any confusion you have caused either on purpose, or through a lack of fully understanding the subject at hand. I would like to think that it's the latter, but I'm really beginning to wonder.
First off, I suggest that you read the following, in case you missed it the last time around.
I clearly understand that live feeders, and frozen fish, can & will supply solid growth to a piscivore/carnivore. There is no question or debate about that.
Having said that, there is also no question that pellet feed can do the same thing, while providing an overall nutrient profile that vastly exceeds what one will find in a feeder goldfish. There is also no question or debate about that. Any post production analysis of a premium pellet food will clear that up in a hurry, and the feeding results speak for themselves. The pellet feed that I use has a 20+ year track record in the industry, and I have lost count as to how many piscivores/carnivores that I have seen over the years that have been successfully raised (long-term) on this pellet diet - hundreds of fish and species raised on it exclusively. And this is just my own personal experiences in my fish room, and those of others that I have witnessed first hand. The feed trials that you speak of have already been performed, and those results speak for themselves.
No one is debating that live goldfish can supply nutrients to a piscivore.
And again, once more for those that are slow on the uptake .........As I have stated repeatedly, this is far more complicated than simply providing amino acids, and fatty acids, and then quantifying growth, and comparing that growth with overall long term health.
So Rich, when you speak of "growth comparison feed trials" between goldfish feeders, and pellets, once again you are apparently failing to grasp the most fundamental basics that I have attempted to explain from the very beginning of this discussion.
Growth is not the only factor, nor the most important factor, when one is comparing the quality of a feed, any feed, and the overall long term health of a fish.
I'm bolding some of these comments in the hopes that some of this will begin to sink in.
I will agree that goldfish may not be as high in fat as previously believed, but again, the level of fat in ANY fish will be dependant on a number of factors, none of which anyone here can determine by simply eye-balling a juvenile fish. This was clearly pointed out in the study performed by the University of Florida on juvenile cichlids, that had fatty deposition within weeks of being subjected to a high lipid diet.
While I have never been a huge fan of the writings of Rob Toonen, the part of that article that you may have missed was that it was not just the LEVEL of fat in a goldfish that was the issue when feeding species such as V. lionfish, it was also the TYPE of fat, and the overall nutrient profile of live goldfish. Unlike most of those in this discussion that utilize live goldfish as part of their feeding regime, people that feed lionfish live goldfish, feed them goldfish exclusively. Fat becomes an issue as marine fish such as V. lionfish require different fatty acids than freshwater fish. Marine fish typically require long chain n-3 HUFA & the correct proportions of EPA/DHA for optimal growth and health. Volitan Lionfish are obligatory predators, and the prey that they consume in the ocean contain these essential fatty acids in the correct proportions for optimum health, goldfish do not. It's not just a case of the levels of saturated fat found in their prey, it's the type of fat found in prey that live in the ocean, compared to that found in a goldfish from the LFS.
From Rob Toonen's article;
No need for feed trials, Rich, feed a V. lionfish, goldfish exclusively, and 100% guarantee they will die within a relatively short period of time. Feed them a premium pellet food, and they will thrive in captivity for many years. That is a proven fact.
It has nothing to do with "gut blockage", as you stated, and everything to do with insufficient and incorrect levels of nutrients.
As previously posted, the same can be said about other species of predatory species, that require more than just "fish" to survive in captivity.
You stated previously ......
You speak of pellets as offering adequate nutrition, yet you have shown me NOTHING from the nutrient profile of a feeder goldfish that comes even remotely close to the nutrient levels found in the pellets that I feed. Zero, zilch, nada!
Clearly an exclusive diet of goldfish feeders will NOT provide even adequate nutrition for many species of fish that are kept in captivity.
Your comment about thiaminase in warm water species is also based on nothing more than your personal opinion. You have no idea what the long term effect of the thiaminase levels found in a goldfish feeder will have on ANY ornamental fish, nor do I, nor does anyone else as no real research has ever taken place in this area. No known risk you say, based on what exactly? The fact that it has never been documented in any ornamental species of fish?
Here's what we do know for fact;
Goldfish are known to contain thiaminase, thiaminase is known to seriously effect vitamin B1 levels in certain fish species that HAVE been studied.
There are NUMEROUS species of tropical freshwater fish that do not produce thiaminase, so I see absolutely no reason why anyone in their right mind would choose to feed goldfish when feeders that are certain to be free of this issue can be raised & fed just as easily. Am I missing something here??? Or does this all just boil down to you having an ulterior motive due to owning a feeder goldfish farm? Hmmmmm. Perhaps the term troll wasn't so far off the mark after all, Rich.
BTW - I'm a wealth of information on all types of feed applications & the science regarding feeding tropical fish, commercial diets, frozen diets, and live food. The fact that I tend to support one type over the others, doesn't mean that I'm not well versed in them all. I'm old enough to remember when dried ant eggs were considered a premium form of food for a fish, and young enough to know better than to believe half the BS I read on the internet.
I'm going to take one last stab at this, just to clear up any confusion you have caused either on purpose, or through a lack of fully understanding the subject at hand. I would like to think that it's the latter, but I'm really beginning to wonder.
First off, I suggest that you read the following, in case you missed it the last time around.
I clearly understand that live feeders, and frozen fish, can & will supply solid growth to a piscivore/carnivore. There is no question or debate about that.
Having said that, there is also no question that pellet feed can do the same thing, while providing an overall nutrient profile that vastly exceeds what one will find in a feeder goldfish. There is also no question or debate about that. Any post production analysis of a premium pellet food will clear that up in a hurry, and the feeding results speak for themselves. The pellet feed that I use has a 20+ year track record in the industry, and I have lost count as to how many piscivores/carnivores that I have seen over the years that have been successfully raised (long-term) on this pellet diet - hundreds of fish and species raised on it exclusively. And this is just my own personal experiences in my fish room, and those of others that I have witnessed first hand. The feed trials that you speak of have already been performed, and those results speak for themselves.
No one is debating that live goldfish can supply nutrients to a piscivore.
And again, once more for those that are slow on the uptake .........As I have stated repeatedly, this is far more complicated than simply providing amino acids, and fatty acids, and then quantifying growth, and comparing that growth with overall long term health.
So Rich, when you speak of "growth comparison feed trials" between goldfish feeders, and pellets, once again you are apparently failing to grasp the most fundamental basics that I have attempted to explain from the very beginning of this discussion.
Growth is not the only factor, nor the most important factor, when one is comparing the quality of a feed, any feed, and the overall long term health of a fish.
I'm bolding some of these comments in the hopes that some of this will begin to sink in.
I will agree that goldfish may not be as high in fat as previously believed, but again, the level of fat in ANY fish will be dependant on a number of factors, none of which anyone here can determine by simply eye-balling a juvenile fish. This was clearly pointed out in the study performed by the University of Florida on juvenile cichlids, that had fatty deposition within weeks of being subjected to a high lipid diet.
While I have never been a huge fan of the writings of Rob Toonen, the part of that article that you may have missed was that it was not just the LEVEL of fat in a goldfish that was the issue when feeding species such as V. lionfish, it was also the TYPE of fat, and the overall nutrient profile of live goldfish. Unlike most of those in this discussion that utilize live goldfish as part of their feeding regime, people that feed lionfish live goldfish, feed them goldfish exclusively. Fat becomes an issue as marine fish such as V. lionfish require different fatty acids than freshwater fish. Marine fish typically require long chain n-3 HUFA & the correct proportions of EPA/DHA for optimal growth and health. Volitan Lionfish are obligatory predators, and the prey that they consume in the ocean contain these essential fatty acids in the correct proportions for optimum health, goldfish do not. It's not just a case of the levels of saturated fat found in their prey, it's the type of fat found in prey that live in the ocean, compared to that found in a goldfish from the LFS.
From Rob Toonen's article;
No need for feed trials, Rich, feed a V. lionfish, goldfish exclusively, and 100% guarantee they will die within a relatively short period of time. Feed them a premium pellet food, and they will thrive in captivity for many years. That is a proven fact.
It has nothing to do with "gut blockage", as you stated, and everything to do with insufficient and incorrect levels of nutrients.
As previously posted, the same can be said about other species of predatory species, that require more than just "fish" to survive in captivity.
You stated previously ......
You speak of pellets as offering adequate nutrition, yet you have shown me NOTHING from the nutrient profile of a feeder goldfish that comes even remotely close to the nutrient levels found in the pellets that I feed. Zero, zilch, nada!
Clearly an exclusive diet of goldfish feeders will NOT provide even adequate nutrition for many species of fish that are kept in captivity.
Your comment about thiaminase in warm water species is also based on nothing more than your personal opinion. You have no idea what the long term effect of the thiaminase levels found in a goldfish feeder will have on ANY ornamental fish, nor do I, nor does anyone else as no real research has ever taken place in this area. No known risk you say, based on what exactly? The fact that it has never been documented in any ornamental species of fish?
Here's what we do know for fact;
Goldfish are known to contain thiaminase, thiaminase is known to seriously effect vitamin B1 levels in certain fish species that HAVE been studied.
There are NUMEROUS species of tropical freshwater fish that do not produce thiaminase, so I see absolutely no reason why anyone in their right mind would choose to feed goldfish when feeders that are certain to be free of this issue can be raised & fed just as easily. Am I missing something here??? Or does this all just boil down to you having an ulterior motive due to owning a feeder goldfish farm? Hmmmmm. Perhaps the term troll wasn't so far off the mark after all, Rich.
BTW - I'm a wealth of information on all types of feed applications & the science regarding feeding tropical fish, commercial diets, frozen diets, and live food. The fact that I tend to support one type over the others, doesn't mean that I'm not well versed in them all. I'm old enough to remember when dried ant eggs were considered a premium form of food for a fish, and young enough to know better than to believe half the BS I read on the internet.
RD, you are a wealth of information and I greatly appreciate your insight, but I remain unconvinced by your argument that there is any commercial diet that can give better results than live. I don't think feeder goldfish should be fed exclusively. I've never made that point. This thread started with the premise that feeder goldfish are nutritious because there is so much misinformation in regards to their use. It is admittedly a provocative title for the thread, a misleading title if you follow where I have taken the discussion. Please note in my posts that I have never said that feeder goldfish should be fed exclusively. This is about live vs. dead.
If you are a breeder of cold-water trout then your statement about thiaminase containing fish holds weight, but not for warm-water species. Not my opinion but that of one of the authors of the study from which you are citing your example. Thiaminase does not cause B1 deficiency in warm-water species when fed live. To say otherwise is just pulling stuff out of the air.
I am interested in the larger live vs. dead debate. Any and all sources of live. The more varied the better. Matched up head to head with what ever brand of canned diet that is most universally excepted as being the best. Do a feed trial designed by the board and monitor the results here. At the end, have a professional fish pathologist examine the fish, without reference, for both internal and external disease or malnutrition. Let's move away from clever debate and onto something more interesting and hopefully lasting. Come on RD, I have thrown the glove on the ground. Are you going to walk away?
From this point forward i will simply use the term live and leave specific mention of any one species out of the discussion where possible. I am motivated to find good solid facts. For a live diet what would a healthy, diverse menu look like? What are good candidates for feeder fish that could be raised economically in a temperate climate at home or a farm? What non-fish live foods have hobbyists had good success with?
Rich
If you are a breeder of cold-water trout then your statement about thiaminase containing fish holds weight, but not for warm-water species. Not my opinion but that of one of the authors of the study from which you are citing your example. Thiaminase does not cause B1 deficiency in warm-water species when fed live. To say otherwise is just pulling stuff out of the air.
I am interested in the larger live vs. dead debate. Any and all sources of live. The more varied the better. Matched up head to head with what ever brand of canned diet that is most universally excepted as being the best. Do a feed trial designed by the board and monitor the results here. At the end, have a professional fish pathologist examine the fish, without reference, for both internal and external disease or malnutrition. Let's move away from clever debate and onto something more interesting and hopefully lasting. Come on RD, I have thrown the glove on the ground. Are you going to walk away?
From this point forward i will simply use the term live and leave specific mention of any one species out of the discussion where possible. I am motivated to find good solid facts. For a live diet what would a healthy, diverse menu look like? What are good candidates for feeder fish that could be raised economically in a temperate climate at home or a farm? What non-fish live foods have hobbyists had good success with?
Rich
