Goldfish are Nutritious

[sjkoi]

RD,

You are right, I am under no illusion that you don't know your subject. There are big advantages for a public aquarium if it can get its stock to feed off pellets (economy, consistency and convenience). A large operation like the Steinhart, I could just imagine how complicated it would be logistically to feed each and every tank live food. There are other considerations that are more practical too but not every species will train onto a pellet. I think I brought up the point that the AZA recognizes the value of pelleted feed as well as natural items. So no issue from me. For the average guy though a 5lb tub of Massivore (I am guessing) is going to last what 2 or 3 years? Using pelleted foods are fine if you buy the very top end, buy it fresh, and use it quickly. But, I am not talking just about the high end diets which are mostly fish meal, which of course the fact that the manufacturer has put in as much fish meal into the pellet as it will hold and still pelletize tells you the value of fish. Which is great except that it begins to loose potency the moment the fish is killed on the boat. Which also brings up another ethical issue raised by the Monterey Bay Aquarium concerning the use of ocean harvested fish meal for livestock feed. That maybe later. In reference to the canned diets I am also speaking to the majority of diets that just aren't fit to be fed to most piscivores. Am I allowed to mention manufactures if I don't have an association?

After all this wind and effort, what I am quite certain of is that this issue will never be solved by discussion. What is needed are some feed trial comparisons. Live vs. Pelleted. It would be a hoot if we could work out something. I would be willing to cough up some dough on this site to sponsor a prize for a grow out contest. How hard would that be to arrange?

BYTW: any chance of getting a backstage tour of the Steinhart

Rich

 

[HULON]

RD,

You are right, I am under no illusion that you don't know your subject. There are big advantages for a public aquarium if it can get its stock to feed off pellets (economy, consistency and convenience). A large operation like the Steinhart, I could just imagine how complicated it would be logistically to feed each and every tank live food. There are other considerations that are more practical too but not every species will train onto a pellet. I think I brought up the point that the AZA recognizes the value of pelleted feed as well as natural items. So no issue from me. For the average guy though a 5lb tub of Massivore (I am guessing) is going to last what 2 or 3 years? Using pelleted foods are fine if you buy the very top end, buy it fresh, and use it quickly. But, I am not talking just about the high end diets which are mostly fish meal, which of course the fact that the manufacturer has put in as much fish meal into the pellet as it will hold and still pelletize tells you the value of fish. Which is great except that it begins to loose potency the moment the fish is killed on the boat. Which also brings up another ethical issue raised by the Monterey Bay Aquarium concerning the use of ocean harvested fish meal for livestock feed. That maybe later. In reference to the canned diets I am also speaking to the majority of diets that just aren't fit to be fed to most piscivores. Am I allowed to mention manufactures if I don't have an association?

After all this wind and effort, what I am quite certain of is that this issue will never be solved by discussion. What is needed are some feed trial comparisons. Live vs. Pelleted. It would be a hoot if we could work out something. I would be willing to cough up some dough on this site to sponsor a prize for a grow out contest. How hard would that be to arrange?

BYTW: any chance of getting a backstage tour of the Steinhart

Rich

There is no need to do or run a control group here just take a look at my fish all raised from fry wild caught now over two years old RAISED ON FEEDER GOLDFISH of course treated and fattened up with dry hikari witch yes is a little cheaper if you don't buy bulk ...The comments are comical to say the least coming from people who probably have not even kept a fish long enough to KNOW what a feeder will cause or not cause ..Of coarse a varied diet is good and better for fish but make no mistake some of the fish we keep are predators pure and simple AND NEED THE CHALLENGE of catching and eating another fish it is what they are made to do they are lions and need to treated this way they have special needs for sure!!!! HughI defy you to show me better looking fish

 

[HULON]

Oh by the way all these fish are very large now and still look good this gal is over 20 inches...

 

[ballinouttacntrol]

Rd is not refering to massivores, i'm sure new life spectrum is what he's refering to but i hate when these convos go toward promoting a specific brand. people start sounding like salesmen.

i dont know of anything kept by hobbyists that cannot be weened onto pellets though. RD will tell you that some of the most sensitive and difficult species for man to raise have been able to switch to pellets.

as for live vs pellets, been done a billion times. the only thing i've picked up from this thread is the OP misguided people with a title like Goldfish are nutritious. perhaps what you really meant is Goldfish can be a part of your fish's diet. instead it appears you're encouraging a pure goldfish diet. what i don't understand is what would a live vs pellet contest prove? it's well known that you can grow up fish on a poor diet, poor education in the fish hobby in the past has already proven that. that doesn't mean the fish could've been healthier or lived a longer life.

 

[HULON]

Rd is not refering to massivores, i'm sure new life spectrum is what he's refering to but i hate when these convos go toward promoting a specific brand. people start sounding like salesmen.

i dont know of anything kept by hobbyists that cannot be weened onto pellets though. RD will tell you that some of the most sensitive and difficult species for man to raise have been able to switch to pellets.

as for live vs pellets, been done a billion times. the only thing i've picked up from this thread is the OP misguided people with a title like Goldfish are nutritious. perhaps what you really meant is Goldfish can be a part of your fish's diet. instead it appears you're encouraging a pure goldfish diet. what i don't understand is what would a live vs pellet contest prove? it's well known that you can grow up fish on a poor diet, poor education in the fish hobby in the past has already proven that. that doesn't mean the fish could've been healthier or lived a longer life.

You made my point for me NO i am not saying a purely goldfish diet is best nore pellot is best ..My whole point to replying to this particular thread is PEOPLE EVEN ON THIS FORUM ARE SADLY MISINFORMED WE AS FISHKEEPERS ARE IN FACT KEEPERS OF WATER !!!!! The fish either thrive in great water quality or struggle and suffer in poor water quality WHEN A FISH TURNS OUT BAD IT'S VERY EASY TO BLAME DIET THEREFORE TAKING THE BLAME OFF YOURSELF AND PUTING IT ON SOMETHING THAT MAY OR MAY NOT EVEN BE IN YOUR "OUR" CONTROLin the end VARIED DIET I BELIEVE IS BEST THE MORE VARIED THE BETTER I AM JUST FED UP WITH PEOPLE NOT TAKING RESPONSEBILATY YOUR ACTIONS AND MINE DETERMINE HOW AND WHAT A FISH TURN OUT TO BE .......Anyway just felt i needed to put my two cents in take it for what it is for sure......Hugh.....And no not a poor diet the best of the best make no mistake.....

 

[kamikaziechameleon]

A balanced diet is a balanced diet and feeding anything exclusively prepared or goldfish feeders would be detrimental to any animal because it always leaves most stock vulnerable to HITH and negates the natural variance in diet the animal experiences in the wild.

I personally don't like goldfish as feeders at all for the following reasons:
1. MESSY!
2. The fish have a very poor digestive system(they can eat their own poop and re-digest it because they miss so much nutrition on the first pass) and as such seem to have poor absorbion of dietary nutrition, basically I can't feed the goldfish a good diet and really hope they pass it on to the fish that eats them they seem like the crickets of the fish world with no cricket vitamin dust I can sprinkle on them.
3. Can't easily breed myself and they are so disease ridden when they come from the store.

At the end of the day I breed my own feeders and they are typically a mix of guppies, danios, miscellaneous undesirable cichlids or hybrids. These fish are all disease free, and are fed a healthy varied diet that they pass on to the fish that eat them.

Edit:

OP plenty of people feed GF exclusively and get away with it or even have good experiences, did you hear about the keeper who fed his gourami kit kat bars exclusively??? I still don't see feeder gold fish as a primary or exclusive source of nutrition as a best practices sort of thing and would discourage it. Tho I don't condone it given your apparent success, ultimately I can only speak to my personal experiences.

 

[aclockworkorange]

There is no need to do or run a control group here just take a look at my fish all raised from fry wild caught now over two years old RAISED ON FEEDER GOLDFISH of course treated and fattened up with dry hikari witch yes is a little cheaper if you don't buy bulk ...The comments are comical to say the least coming from people who probably have not even kept a fish long enough to KNOW what a feeder will cause or not cause ..Of coarse a varied diet is good and better for fish but make no mistake some of the fish we keep are predators pure and simple AND NEED THE CHALLENGE of catching and eating another fish it is what they are made to do they are lions and need to treated this way they have special needs for sure!!!! HughI defy you to show me better looking fish

How many zoos feed live food to their lions?

A balanced diet is a balanced diet and feeding anything exclusively prepared or goldfish feeders would be detrimental to any animal because it always leaves most stock vulnerable to HITH and negates the natural variance in diet the animal experiences in the wild.

I personally don't like goldfish as feeders at all for the following reasons:
1. MESSY!
2. The fish have a very poor digestive system(they can eat their own poop and re-digest it because they miss so much nutrition on the first pass) and as such seem to have poor absorbion of dietary nutrition, basically I can't feed the goldfish a good diet and really hope they pass it on to the fish that eats them they seem like the crickets of the fish world with no cricket vitamin dust I can sprinkle on them.
3. Can't easily breed myself and they are so disease ridden when they come from the store.

At the end of the day I breed my own feeders and they are typically a mix of guppies, danios, miscellaneous undesirable cichlids or hybrids. These fish are all disease free, and are fed a healthy varied diet that they pass on to the fish that eat them.

Edit:

OP plenty of people feed GF exclusively and get away with it or even have good experiences, did you hear about the keeper who fed his gourami kit kat bars exclusively??? I still don't see feeder gold fish as a primary or exclusive source of nutrition as a best practices sort of thing and would discourage it. Tho I don't condone it given your apparent success, ultimately I can only speak to my personal experiences.

If a prepared food has every single aspect of nutrition covered with a variety of ingredients, isn't that an inherently varied diet? Do you feel the need to feed a cat 5 different types of dry food and live mice?

And I can play show and tell with pictures too, but that really doesn't prove anything as to what's going on with your fish internally...

 

[screaminleeman]

sjkoi,

I have made the effort and successfully converted all of my fish off of live feeders with the exception of my YOY gars. I have found the general health of my fish to increase since switching to NLS pellet and frozen market seafood.

I only feed live to my Gars, Bowfins and Green Sunfish (Bowfins and Green sunnies are tank mates). I do NOT think that the gars armored scales makes them totally immune from external parasites, but it is a fantastic defense that I have never seen breached in 20 - 30 gars that I have kept.

To be perfectly honest, I only see two benefits from feeding live feeders even to YOY gars, and one of the top experts on Gar laughed at my second reason and ASSURED me that I was incorrect in my fears:

1. Not reduce the "hunting skills" of Gars that are intended to be used for outdoor pond stocking RATHER than "fishkeeping". One of the top expert on Gar "pejelajarto" quickly, and not terribly gently, dispelled my concern. I was assured I could NOT take the "hunt" out of a gar by NOT feeding it live prey!

Leaving the only valid reason that I have left keeping me feeding YOY gars live feeders is:

2. The admitedly sick pleasure of watching the process of the "stealth" stag of the fish by the gar followed by the deliberate positioning of it's prey in it's elongated mouth for swallowing. I do SO love to watch (Especially my LNG) do the gar hunt thing. (I can't help myself!).

 

[RD.]

I really didn't want to get dragged back into this, but some things just can't be left unsaid.

Rich,

You can repeat your mantra of economy, consistency and convenience, until you are blue in the face, but you saying so don't make it so.

There are big advantages for a public aquarium if it can get its stock to feed off pellets (economy, consistency and convenience).

Obviously with the example of the pellet feed that I gave (a premium formula that only comes in 5lb pails) economy plays no role. A public aquarium seeking an economical pellet alternative to fresh/frozen/live would be seeking out a supplier that sold pellets in 25-100lb bag lots, or larger, which is easy enough to accomplish in the USA. Lots of feed mills are even willing to tweak their formulas to any specs that one desires if one wants to purchase pellets in large enough bulk quantities.

Yes pellets are more consistent with regards to their nutrient profile compared to fresh/frozen food that has seasonal variations and potential storage/transport issues that always have to be checked, and re-checked on a constant basis, and factored into the overall feeding equation, which can also have the result of being more convenient to feed.

Having said that, some (if not most) of these multi-million dollar facilities are seeking nothing more than the ultimate in nutrients for their fish, corals, etc - the fact that many are willing to buy food in 5lb pails (even if by the box lot) and pay a premium price tag, pretty much proves that point.

This clearly isn't a case of what's easier, or more cost effective, it's about a higher quality feed that supplies their fish with a far better overall nutrient profile. Even if the cost may initially appear to be cost prohibitive. As I have stated repeatedly, this is far more complicated than simply providing amino acids, and fatty acids, and then quantifying growth, and comparing that growth with overall long term health.

As an example .......

From the University of Florida, Fisheries & Aquatic Sciences division.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa179

Besides the difficulty in meeting the spatial requirements and life-support systems of many sharks, managing the dietary needs of a captive shark has proven difficult as little nutritional research has been done on elasmobranch species. For example, sharks, like all animals, require essential vitamins and minerals which cannot be met if they are fed a pure protein diet of shrimp or fish; therefore, in captivity, sharks must be supplemented with vitamins, like Mazuri SharkTabs®. Captive sharks can develop a wasting disease if they are not fed their proper nutritional requirements. They can develop goiter from iodide deficiency and spinal deformities from vitamin C and/or vitamin A deficiencies. Complicating matters, sharks are notorious for spitting out their vitamins and for being "picky eaters." Therefore, much shark husbandry and care must be focused on meeting the dietary needs of the fish.

The reality is that "little nutritional research" has been done with the vast majority of species of ornamental fish that are kept in captivity. For the most part the best that one can do is utilize the vast amount of information out there regarding commercial species of fish (raised for human consumption) and then thinking outside the box extrapolate some of that information into a better, more well balanced, superior feed for ornamental species. Then stay on top of current science & research & tweak things accordingly. It can be done, if a manufacturer is willing to put their money where their mouth is, and has a clear understanding of what it takes to pull this off.

I clearly understand that live feeders, and frozen fish, can & will supply solid growth to a piscivore/carnivore. There is no question or debate about that. No need for anyone to post pictures.

Having said that, there is also no question that pellet feed can do the same thing, while providing an overall nutrient profile that vastly exceeds what one will find in a feeder goldfish. There is also no question or debate about that. Any post production analysis of a premium pellet food will clear that up in a hurry, and the feeding results speak for themselves. The pellet feed that I use has a 20+ year track record in the industry, and I have lost count as to how many piscivores/carnivores that I have seen over the years that have been successfully raised (long-term) on this pellet diet - hundreds of fish and species raised on it exclusively. And this is just my own personal experiences in my fish room, and those of others that I have witnessed first hand. The feed trials that you speak of have already been performed, and those results speak for themselves.


Screamin - pejelajarto knows what he is talking about, no question about that, as does Solomon (E_ americanus). I posted a link to this past discussion on gars in a previous comment, most everything that needs to be said was already said in that discussion, and supported by two members that can be considered experts in raising & keeping piscivores (specifically gars) in captivity.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?348258-Live-vs-Prepared-vs-Pellet

Neither of those gentlemen recommend feeding live feeders, and certainly not goldfish, once a juvenile gar is large enough to be trained on to pellets. Pejelajarto & Solomon choose to feed pellets whenever humanly possible, for the same reasons that I do, which has nothing to do with cost, or convenience.


At the end of the day people reading this discussion can decide who's opinion they should rely on, a Koi farmer who is looking to raise & sell feeder goldfish on the side, or a couple of well respected long term members of MFK, who also hold degrees in aquaculture, and who specialize in the raising & feeding of piscivores in captivity.

 

[screaminleeman]

I really didn't want to get dragged back into this, but some things just can't be left unsaid.

Rich,

You can repeat your mantra of economy, consistency and convenience, until you are blue in the face, but you saying so don't make it so.



Obviously with the example of the pellet feed that I gave (a premium formula that only comes in 5lb pails) economy plays no role. A public aquarium seeking an economical pellet alternative to fresh/frozen/live would be seeking out a supplier that sold pellets in 25-100lb bag lots, or larger, which is easy enough to accomplish in the USA. Lots of feed mills are even willing to tweak their formulas to any specs that one desires if one wants to purchase pellets in large enough bulk quantities.

Yes pellets are more consistent with regards to their nutrient profile compared to fresh/frozen food that has seasonal variations and potential storage/transport issues that always have to be checked, and re-checked on a constant basis, and factored into the overall feeding equation, which can also have the result of being more convenient to feed.

Having said that, some (if not most) of these multi-million dollar facilities are seeking nothing more than the ultimate in nutrients for their fish, corals, etc - the fact that many are willing to buy food in 5lb pails (even if by the box lot) and pay a premium price tag, pretty much proves that point.

This clearly isn't a case of what's easier, or more cost effective, it's about a higher quality feed that supplies their fish with a far better overall nutrient profile. Even if the cost may initially appear to be cost prohibitive. As I have stated repeatedly, this is far more complicated than simply providing amino acids, and fatty acids, and then quantifying growth, and comparing that growth with overall long term health.

As an example .......

From the University of Florida, Fisheries & Aquatic Sciences division.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa179



The reality is that "little nutritional research" has been done with the vast majority of species of ornamental fish that are kept in captivity. For the most part the best that one can do is utilize the vast amount of information out there regarding commercial species of fish (raised for human consumption) and then thinking outside the box extrapolate some of that information into a better, more well balanced, superior feed for ornamental species. Then stay on top of current science & research & tweak things accordingly. It can be done, if a manufacturer is willing to put their money where their mouth is, and has a clear understanding of what it takes to pull this off.

I clearly understand that live feeders, and frozen fish, can & will supply solid growth to a piscivore/carnivore. There is no question or debate about that. No need for anyone to post pictures.

Having said that, there is also no question that pellet feed can do the same thing, while providing an overall nutrient profile that vastly exceeds what one will find in a feeder goldfish. There is also no question or debate about that. Any post production analysis of a premium pellet food will clear that up in a hurry, and the feeding results speak for themselves. The pellet feed that I use has a 20+ year track record in the industry, and I have lost count as to how many piscivores/carnivores that I have seen over the years that have been successfully raised (long-term) on this pellet diet - hundreds of fish and species raised on it exclusively. And this is just my own personal experiences in my fish room, and those of others that I have witnessed first hand. The feed trials that you speak of have already been performed, and those results speak for themselves.


Screamin - pejelajarto knows what he is talking about, no question about that, as does Solomon (E_ americanus). I posted a link to this past discussion on gars in a previous comment, most everything that needs to be said was already said in that discussion, and supported by two members that can be considered experts in raising & keeping piscivores (specifically gars) in captivity.
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?348258-Live-vs-Prepared-vs-Pellet

Neither of those gentlemen recommend feeding live feeders, and certainly not goldfish, once a juvenile gar is large enough to be trained on to pellets. Pejelajarto & Solomon choose to feed pellets whenever humanly possible, for the same reasons that I do, which has nothing to do with cost, or convenience.


At the end of the day people reading this discussion can decide who's opinion they should rely on, a Koi farmer who is looking to raise & sell feeder goldfish on the side, or a couple of well respected long term members of MFK, who also hold degrees in aquaculture, and who specialize in the raising & feeding of piscivores in captivity.

Thanks RD.

I re-read the thread and do remember it from last year. It has unfortunately served more to "confuse" me than answer my original question.

pejelajarto basically broke it off in me for the suggestion that there is ANY chance of repressing a Gar's, that is intended for wild stocking, hunting ability. I am no scientest, and I used the term "domesticated" erroneously (I assume). I left the thread with my tail between my legs and have been for the most part TOO EMBARISED to post in that section since then. Now you send me to revisit this thread and I am posting a QUOTE from the other top Gar export on the forum. I started to attempt to ween some of my gars off live and onto pellet due to pejelajarto and his experience.

It does NOT appear from this quoted post that Solomon was at all in agreement with pejelajarto. I know that this thread was from a year ago, but I am now major league conflicted! I should post this in the Gar section for clarification as I have NEVER intendeed for ANY of my dozen plus gar to inhabit aquarium. They are for NOTHING more than stocking in a natural spring fed farm pond over 100' in diameter and dredged to 15' deep.

Originally Posted by Lepisosteus platyrhincus;4365314;
any tips for getting the gar to take pellets? Im not against pellets, just IMO u cant feed just one kind of pellet to a gar(or any fish) and expect it to be the pennicle of health. similar to my dog. i cant give her just her dog food(enginered to be healthy) and espect her to be super healthy. she gets her dog food as a staple and other food, rawhides and such for other various vitamens and such.

My gar wont take pellets. they will eat or try to anything but pellets. well correction for some reason now they refuse earth worms. dunno why they used to eat them but simply refuse now. but id love a tip. would help fatten the shorty up alittle. little bugger burns through food way too fast



i think this has been said many times in this thread, but you CAN feed just one type of pellet and the fish will be very healthy and not require another type of food...provided it is the RIGHT type of pellet. this is true even with gars, and many of the alligator and tropical gar hatcheries feed only pellets and trust me when i say their fish are just fine and of high-quality stock. some of these hatcheries switch to live for some of their fish, but this is usually only in prepping them for release into the wild to re-stock depleted populations, obviously a gar in this case would have to learn how to catch food (in home aquaria this is NOT a necessity, no matter how much we may think so).

as for converting to pellets, i will be quite honest with you in that i seldom have the patience to train gars onto pellets. in my experience either they take it when i offer it to them or they don't. when converting to non-live, i concentrate more of my efforts on getting them to take frozen foods, as these are usually more accepted by gars with less effort. pellet conversion CAN be done, and richard has some good techniques for that, so check out any of this postings on the subject, or i'm sure he can post again here.

i do plan on revisiting the "hide-the-pellet-in the food" technique to make sure the gars are getting more bang for their buck, but other than that, some of my older fish will just not take pellets (i.e. old Cubans).

some species are much more prone to take pellets for whatever reason, gator gars are garbage disposals throughout their life, so just offering pellets at various stages even starting with YOY will usually result in acceptance.

t-gars will usually take them since that is the singular food item they are given on the farms.

Lepisosteus genus fish will take pellets, but IME this takes a bit more effort, and several people here have commented on the true spotted gars being finicky with pellets (and some even with regular non-live such as frozen fish).

it also boils down to your individual fish. the general advice is keep offering it to them, and offer it to them where you would normally drop their normal food. be sure to remove the pellets if they don't take it during the regular feeding period, and then just offer up again next time.
as i alluded to before, you can always cut a hole into a chunk of fish or shrimp and hide a pellet in there, at least this way your fish is getting some of the needed materials they are lacking in straight up frozen foods and especially live.

hope that helps!--
--solomon​

____________________________________________________________________________