Just wanna discuss nitrates

[RayJunkie]

This data wasn't available when people started smoking. Hundreds of years people were dying to cancer, pneumonia, and other complications of smoking. It was compelling data of lowered life expectancy and increased health factors that caused people to take a step back and look at tobacco as a source. The difference in my eyes, is that we could record the data of smoking related health complications from hundreds of millions of people, over hundreds of years. I only know of a handful of people who have kept rays for 20+ years and not enough ray keepers to make a worthwhile sample size.

Add in many other features we only experience in the aquarium for various species (Captive specimens being significantly largers, longer lived, smaller, shorter lived etc) and a lack of constant ammonia/nitrite/nitrate from the wild and it becomes a topic that would require decades of study to provide meaningful results.

Just my 2 cents, it's certainly humbled me in my efforts trying to keep sub 20 nitrates.

i agree, there simply isnt enough data to get a conclusive understanding. But i believe that works both ways... if there isnt enough data to prove that a ray's life expectancy isn't affected by nitrates, then there isnt enough data to prove that nitrates <40 would give a longer life expectancy.

that aside, while i readily acknowledge i cant give the answer for long term effects (10-20 year++?), i can say that 1xx nitrates do not mean your fish will end up sick or dead in months, years. that i can definately prove. so i really want to hear from those who think otherwise, about their first hand experiences, or what made them believe thus, apart from reading literature.

and apart from comparing natural levels of nitrates and attempting to assimilate them, how was it established that X level is safe Y level is not Z level makes fish sick/die? ammonia u get direct "burns", nitrites u get blood "toxification", so what about nitrates? most case studies that i've seen that actually could provide cold hard data was in relation to food fishes, not ornamental fish.

it's an open discussion. i would really love to hear more personal experiences on how nitrates directly affected one's fishes, be it short term or long term. i'm throwing out my experience here in the hope of being proven wrong, i'm not debating because i want to be right, i want to know why i'm wrong in a manner i can believe in.

 

[Jez1992]

I completely agree with this.

I know of some very successful ray breeders in the UK with nitrate constable at 150 + ppm, with no issues.

I think the most important thing is consistency and maintain a regular level of everything, including nitrates, which in turn which keep PH and everything the same.

Here in some parts of the UK, nitrate is very high. my tap is like 60 + ppm, so levels in tank even higher.

Some people use a mix of RO water or a Nitrate reducing vessel with resin, but in honesty they're are expensive, waste a lot of water and needs regenerating often which is a pain!

I'm glad to see you've also had long term success with higher levels are relives my mind slightly! lol

I

 

[CANAMONSTER]

Great thread! I like the don't test water if nothing is broke method. Test only to diagnose a problem. Keep it simple is the best way IMO.

 

[FreshyFresh]

There's scientific articles all over the interwebs illustrating the effects of high nitrates on marine and freshwater inhabitants. Problem is like you say, proving just the nitrates are the cause of issues in the home aquarium. Most cases it's probably a combination of things associated with improper care. At the end of the day, water changes do more than just reduce nitrates. They keep your TDS and pH consistent among other things that could also badly effect your fish.

I too rarely break out my test kit because I do large weekly water changes and my tanks and care level don't change.

 

[philipraposo1982]

i will be honest and say while I do care about nitrates and water quality in general I rarely test my water. Like many experienced keepers I look at my plants / fish and can tell where something is / has changed.

I have to admit I don't overstock my tank, I feed responsibly and have a large amount of terrestrial plants going out the top of my tank. With that said I barely have 10ppm of nitrates. I weekly wc and that's it.

I would terrified to see 100+ nitrates. There has been many studies of fish who can sustain super high level of nitrates and many fish who die as the slightest amounts.

Most freshwater fish we keep in the hobby are bred locally or farmed which in many cases have higher nitrate levels as opposed to their wild waters. So i feel over the years fish have built up more of a tolerance to nitrates.

I still like to keep mine below 10 if possible. I always find best growth and colors with minimal nitrates.

 

[RayJunkie]

I completely agree with this.

I know of some very successful ray breeders in the UK with nitrate constable at 150 + ppm, with no issues.

I think the most important thing is consistency and maintain a regular level of everything, including nitrates, which in turn which keep PH and everything the same.

Here in some parts of the UK, nitrate is very high. my tap is like 60 + ppm, so levels in tank even higher.

Some people use a mix of RO water or a Nitrate reducing vessel with resin, but in honesty they're are expensive, waste a lot of water and needs regenerating often which is a pain!

I'm glad to see you've also had long term success with higher levels are relives my mind slightly! lol

I

yup that's what woke me up.. the established ray breeders who never had below 100 nitrates.

problem i face is my tap water not only has detectable nitrites n nitrates, it's high in chloramine... which ultimtately becomes nitrates... so similarly to u, when doing a large water change wouldnt bring nitrates down to what some ppl would say are crucial levels, the battle is already lost without fighting lol.

i did try RO when breeding discus, then in similar fashion found it simply was not needed... heck breeders on the other side of the world were doing it with hard water, with ph hitting 8. i aso toyed around with DIY denitrators, but soon realised they require too much effort to feed n degas as compared to marine denitrators, so i gave up.

irony was after saying heck with nitrates, i realised i wasnt alone. So yea, whatever works is good enough. not gonna lose sleep over nitrates no more.

 

[RayJunkie]

Great thread! I like the don't test water if nothing is broke method. Test only to diagnose a problem. Keep it simple is the best way IMO.

yea that's about it, just that i test when i foresee a problem... like after adding new fish, cleaning up the sump tank, moving tanks etcetc. i used to stress myself testing every few days but realised it was kinda redundant once the tanks were stable n no changes were made.

 

[RayJunkie]

There's scientific articles all over the interwebs illustrating the effects of high nitrates on marine and freshwater inhabitants. Problem is like you say, proving just the nitrates are the cause of issues in the home aquarium. Most cases it's probably a combination of things associated with improper care. At the end of the day, water changes do more than just reduce nitrates. They keep your TDS and pH consistent among other things that could also badly effect your fish.

I too rarely break out my test kit because I do large weekly water changes and my tanks and care level don't change.

i've read those articles... and they basically say nitrate poisoning (which they never explain in detail ) can cause loss of colour, loss of appetite, listlessness, shimmering, stunted growth etcetc and long term exposure = death. and usually those articles say to keep nitrates as low as possible with anything above 30-50 to have the potential for such issues. problem is i never experienced those issues which is why i was always skeptical.

i do 2 x 50-80% water changes weekly, and my tanks are all way overfiltered eg my 500g has 2 x sumps with 400g total capacity, one for static media and the other for moving media. 12 x turnover rate/ hour after factoring head loss. Basically my only issue is nitrates being constantly in the 100s , and it hasnt caused me any problems thus far.

 

[RayJunkie]

i will be honest and say while I do care about nitrates and water quality in general I rarely test my water. Like many experienced keepers I look at my plants / fish and can tell where something is / has changed.

I have to admit I don't overstock my tank, I feed responsibly and have a large amount of terrestrial plants going out the top of my tank. With that said I barely have 10ppm of nitrates. I weekly wc and that's it.

I would terrified to see 100+ nitrates. There has been many studies of fish who can sustain super high level of nitrates and many fish who die as the slightest amounts.

Most freshwater fish we keep in the hobby are bred locally or farmed which in many cases have higher nitrate levels as opposed to their wild waters. So i feel over the years fish have built up more of a tolerance to nitrates.

I still like to keep mine below 10 if possible. I always find best growth and colors with minimal nitrates.

i would appreciate it if u could point me to those links with tests of fish that die at the slightest amounts of nitrates, excluding marine fish. i could never find any real case studies on the effects of varying levels of nitrates.

personally i've kept wild caught rays, discus, altums n plecoes in 100+ nitrates with no apparant side effects.

best growth to me is all about large water changes and the amount of feedings... multiple controlled feedings daily are better than 1-2 large feedings. colour wise i don't know how to judge.. i have to say some of the best colourations i've seen were displayed by fishes in algae laden green water.. which isnt low in nitrates either.

 

[CANAMONSTER]

Do you do manual water changes on your ray tanks, or run constant drip?